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Spikes On The Grille - Carmelite Monastery

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inperpetuity

Ok, I see where they had them in the parlor but are removed now, thanks for that and thanks Gratian for the explanation.

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MarysLittleFlower

Family would usually see their nun-family member without the veil, but the other sister in the parlour with her would be wearing the parlour veil. 

 

 

Yes, that's written somewhere either in their Constitutions or Ceremonial, that only immediate family could see them without the veil over their faces in the parlor. When I have a chance later tonight maybe I'll go look that up.

 

I didn't know this! which orders are these? is it still practiced? what about pictures of nuns that we see with their faces not covered? (maybe it depends on the order then). Learned something new lol :)

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truthfinder

I didn't know this! which orders are these? is it still practiced? what about pictures of nuns that we see with their faces not covered? (maybe it depends on the order then). Learned something new lol :)

 

This tends to depend highly on the community (I'm speaking strictly Carmelites) - some are okay with their pictures being taken, others allow family members only to take their picture (and for it to remain among family only), others allow pictures of the nun at her final profession since they are public vows, others because their bishop has asked them to have their picture taken for vocation promotion or the like, and others allow pictures that do not show their face thus giving people some sense of what they do without breaking the anonymity and sort of "personal cloister" of each sister.  Since the communities are autonomous, but all following the same rule and one of the Constitutions, you can get a lot of variance when it comes to Carmelites and their pictures being taken. 

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graciandelamadrededios

I think you mean this one. 

 

2_10_Y_img0000045A.jpg

 

This is from Seattle Carmel's old monastery at 1808 18th Ave., which is mentioned both in the newspaper clip here, http://www.ebay.com/itm/1950-Codd-Rev-William-J-Carmelite-Monastery-Press-Photo-/200738779921  & here, http://www.seattlecarmel.org/history.htm

 

So we know at least one US Carmel had them and they are French.

 

But yes, nowadays most of the Carmels that seem to still have them (besides that one in Poland you shared with me Gracian & what Manila left up & Mangalore) are Carmels in Spain, including San Jose in Avila. 

 

Yes, Chiqui!  This is the photo.  Though the spikes are very few compared to Manila and Mangalore Carmel.

 

I have not seen the spikes in St. Joseph Carmel in Avila.  Can you post the photos?

 

Gracian

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graciandelamadrededios

Family would usually see their nun-family member without the veil, but the other sister in the parlour with her would be wearing the parlour veil. 

 

 

This is a Pre-Vatican II Custom, I am not sure if any Carmels still wears the huge parlor veil. 

 

What I heard is that some Carmels pulls down their communion veil down to their nose and not further down the chest - for some 1990 Carmels but not all.

 

I can freely speak to any nun without their veils pulled down and no other nun to hear what is being said on the parlor in Manila Carmel.

 

Please refer to:

 

Rule and Constitutions

of the

Discalced Nuns

of the Order of Our Blessed Lady of MOunt Carmel

1928

 

 

Chapter III

 

On Enclosure

 

 

24. The Religious may not be seen without veil except by their parents, brothers, and sisters, or in some other case where there may be an equally just reason, such as for some necessary or reasonable cause, but then only by such persons as may likely to help the Religious in the practice of prayer and give them spiritual consolation rather than recreation.  The Prioress herself or some other  Nun should always be present to hear what is said.

 

The above provision is kept in the 1990 Text but the Prioress is free to decide if the the commuity veil themselves or not.

 

While I love the great veil and the spikes on the grille, some people have different understanding on this practice nowadays - it scares them!

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graciandelamadrededios

I wonder if they have them in the parlor as well?  That would make it more difficult for family, but I like them in the chapel.

 

I have a huge book on Cloistered Communities of Women in Poland; it features some photos of spikes on the choir grille and on their parlor grille of a Carmelite Monastery.  They might be a 1990 Carmel.

 

I think Manila Carmel had spikes on their parlor grille before but the Prioress had them removed.

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graciandelamadrededios

I didn't know this! which orders are these? is it still practiced? what about pictures of nuns that we see with their faces not covered? (maybe it depends on the order then). Learned something new lol :)

 

The Poor Clare Colettine covered their faces before Vatican II, they call their huge veil as Enclosure Veil.  The PCC in the USA no longer covered their faces.

 

The Discalced Carmelite Nuns covered their faces before Vatican II as well and they have different terms for this veils - Grate Veil, Great Veil, Parlor Veil, etc.  I am not sure if any Carmels still uses this large veils or great veils.  What I know is that some 1990 Carmels uses their communion veils instead where they pull it down to their nose; the great veils completely covers the face and the veil falls down to their chest.

 

I was told the the Conceptionist Nuns of St. Beatriz da Silva also wears enclosure veils before Vatican II.

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Chiquitunga

I have not seen the spikes in St. Joseph Carmel in Avila.  Can you post the photos?

 

Gracian

 

It looks like at the Carmel of San Jose in Avila they took them off the grille in the parlor, but left them in the chapel.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C98bIOoFJ7M

 

When I found these videos about Sr. Edita, this was actually the first time I had ever seen spikes on the grille like that, http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/109813-croatian-actress-professes-solemn-vows-in-avila/  Somehow I missed that in my previous Carmelite research/didn't look carefully enough at pictures I'd seen from Spain which had them, especially those founded by Madre Maravillas. It's pretty interesting. 

 

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graciandelamadrededios

Hi Chiqui,

 

I just watched the video you mentioned and you are right, there are still spikes on the choir grille but their placement is not the same as Mangalore and Manila Carmels – the spikes are attached to the intersections.

 

In the old custom book of Montelimar Carmel, it was stipulated that the spikes must be 3 inches in lenght.

 

 

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inperpetuity

Buffalo had the "Great Veil" which they were still using when I was there.  I thought it was beautiful.  I would think their two foundations in Alexandria and Brooklyn still have it.  I can't imagine why they would do away with it.

Edited by inperpetuity

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graciandelamadrededios

Buffalo had the "Great Veil" which they were still using when I was there.  I thought it was beautiful.  I would think their two foundations in Alexandria and Brooklyn still have it.  I can't imagine why they would do away with it.

 

That is interesting.... 

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graciandelamadrededios

I recently got a copy of "Carmel: Its History, Spirit, and Saints"  compiled by The Discalced Carmelites of Boston and Santa Clara, published in 1927.

 

It says that Pope Urban IV made the regulation that in all monasteries, each grate should be armed with points of iron.

 

Further, it says that St. Charles of Borromeo, during the Council of Milan, approved and generalized  the use of double grate as ordained by St. Francis of Paula for his religious and even designated the distance which should separate one from another.  He also wished the Religious to have their faces covered with a veil before persons from without, who should be obliged to enter into the cloister

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Chiquitunga

I recently got a copy of "Carmel: Its History, Spirit, and Saints"  compiled by The Discalced Carmelites of Boston and Santa Clara, published in 1927.

 

It says that Pope Urban IV made the regulation that in all monasteries, each grate should be armed with points of iron.

 

Further, it says that St. Charles of Borromeo, during the Council of Milan, approved and generalized  the use of double grate as ordained by St. Francis of Paula for his religious and even designated the distance which should separate one from another.  He also wished the Religious to have their faces covered with a veil before persons from without, who should be obliged to enter into the cloister

 

Really interesting! Thank you for sharing that! Did it say Pope Urban wanted monasteries of all Orders to have the iron points?

 

Thank you for sharing the picture from Manila Carmel also!

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graciandelamadrededios

Really interesting! Thank you for sharing that! Did it say Pope Urban wanted monasteries of all Orders to have the iron points?

 

Thank you for sharing the picture from Manila Carmel also!

 

It said all monasteries and not just Carmel.

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graciandelamadrededios

Books where spikes on the Choir Grilles were featured:

 

1. I recently got a copy of the book "Flame of Joy: Marie-Angelique of Jesus, o.c.d." written by the Carmelites of Pontoise and translated by Mother Miriam of Jesus of Eugene Carmel and there was a photo of the choir grille with spikes.  

 

2. Also, I saw the same spikes on the choir grille of Carmel of Reposoir upon reading the booklet in French called Le Reposoir.

 

3. Lastly, a friend sent me a copy of a booklet "Australia: The land of their heritage" Discalced Carmelite Nuns 1885 - 1985 published by Dulwich Hill Carmelite Monastery in Sydney, Australia, there is one photo taken in front of the choir grille with spikes - it was Mother Mary of the Holy Spirit's Golden Jubilee of Profession in 1933.

 

All of these grilles may have been taken down and replaced with a new one since these photos were all taken after Vatican II.  The custom of spikes on the grille were carried over to France by the Spanish Mothers and the French Mother introduced them to Asian and Australian Carmels.  I am not sure why few American Carmels adopted this custom.  I heard from one American Prioress that their Carmel never had a grille with spikes even before Vatican II and she never heard of any other American Carmels having one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Chiquitunga

Welcome back, Chiqui!

 
Thanks gracian! :like:
 

Books where spikes on the Choir Grilles were featured:

 

1. I recently got a copy of the book "Flame of Joy: Marie-Angelique of Jesus, o.c.d." written by the Carmelites of Pontoise and translated by Mother Miriam of Jesus of Eugene Carmel and there was a photo of the choir grille with spikes.  

 

2. Also, I saw the same spikes on the choir grille of Carmel of Reposoir upon reading the booklet in French called Le Reposoir.

 

3. Lastly, a friend sent me a copy of a booklet "Australia: The land of their heritage" Discalced Carmelite Nuns 1885 - 1985 published by Dulwich Hill Carmelite Monastery in Sydney, Australia, there is one photo taken in front of the choir grille with spikes - it was Mother Mary of the Holy Spirit's Golden Jubilee of Profession in 1933.

 

All of these grilles may have been taken down and replaced with a new one since these photos were all taken after Vatican II.  The custom of spikes on the grille were carried over to France by the Spanish Mothers and the French Mother introduced them to Asian and Australian Carmels.  I am not sure why few American Carmels adopted this custom.  I heard from one American Prioress that their Carmel never had a grille with spikes even before Vatican II and she never heard of any other American Carmels having one.

 

Thanks for sharing all of this! Very interesting. Also, I'm so glad you got a copy of Flame of Joy

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Chiquitunga

I think you mean this one. 

 

2_10_Y_img0000045A.jpg

 

This is from Seattle Carmel's old monastery at 1808 18th Ave., which is mentioned both in the newspaper clip here, http://www.ebay.com/itm/1950-Codd-Rev-William-J-Carmelite-Monastery-Press-Photo-/200738779921  & here, http://www.seattlecarmel.org/history.htm

 

So we know at least one US Carmel had them and they are French.

 

But yes, nowadays most of the Carmels that seem to still have them (besides that one in Poland you shared with me Gracian & what Manila left up & Mangalore) are Carmels in Spain, including San Jose in Avila. 

 

just thought I'd post these really quick ... some more pictures from Seattle Carmel on eBay

 

$T2eC16VHJIgFHRhz6PpBBSKgceEKIQ~~60_3.JP

 

$T2eC16ZHJHkFFmFsw+fkBSKgtC3V4w~~60_3.JP

 

$T2eC16JHJHMFH!gf6,01BSKgci(9E!~~60_3.JP

 

I wonder... what if someone leaned on those spikes by accident? :o

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VeniJesuAmorMi

just thought I'd post these really quick ... some more pictures from Seattle Carmel on eBay

 

$T2eC16VHJIgFHRhz6PpBBSKgceEKIQ~~60_3.JP

 

$T2eC16ZHJHkFFmFsw+fkBSKgtC3V4w~~60_3.JP

 

$T2eC16JHJHMFH!gf6,01BSKgci(9E!~~60_3.JP

 

I wonder... what if someone leaned on those spikes by accident? :o

 

Just had to comment on what beautiful pictures! The women also were dressed so nice and modestly. Thank you for sharing Chiqui!

 

Happy feast day of Saint Therese to all! The feast day is also celebrated on Oct. 3 in the traditional calendar, so we could really celebrate both days. :)

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