Debate About Consecrated Virginity

[Sponsa-Christi]

I have also read Therese Ivers’ book—even though obviously I’m a few years past planning my consecration, I like to keep up with whatever new literature is out there on CVs. :) 

 

I appreciate all the effort Miss Ivers put into writing it, and I think it could be very helpful for candidates who are actually at the point of needing to plan their consecration ceremony and reception (which I think was her intended audience, anyway). But, I personally would not recommend this book for women who are first discerning this vocation.

 

This is absolutely NOT directed at any specific person here, but I think it’s very easy to over-romanticize consecrated virginity.

 

For one thing, the Rite of Consecration itself is a lot more dramatic than most religious profession ceremonies, and bridal imagery is sort of just intrinsically romantic.But also, aspiring consecrated virgins don’t have all the “reality checks” that romantically-inclined aspiring nuns and Sisters have.

 

Even if a diocese actually has a formation program for consecrated virgins, right now it’s extremely unlikely that it will be anywhere near as comprehensive as the formation programs that religious, seminarians, or even candidates for the permanent diaconate have. Also, an aspiring CV will lack the grounding influence of community life, and she might not be able to be in contact with any local older CVs who could serve as a role model for how this vocation is lived out through all the trials and tribulations of real life.

 

I am all for having a beautiful consecration day (although, in my own personal opinion, I think having a beautiful yet simple celebration is more in keeping with the spirit of this vocation). But I do think the focus of the early stages of discernment should be about considering the different elements involved in how you hope to live a beautiful consecrated life. 

[Sponsa-Christi]

However--lest you all think I'm a total stick-in-the-mud!--after all the "Women in Habits" threads, I do like the idea of a thread about pretty consecration pictures. :)

[MarysLittleFlower]

I see what Sponsa Christi is saying about not forgetting about the consecrated life while thinking about the consecration day! it's like how people can put in so much effort into planning their wedding and forget to think about the actual marriage ;) lol.

 

However, yes it's hard not to think about this, lol, for anyone inclined to this. I don't know my vocation yet. If I could be a consecrated virgin, I think it would be best to have a simple and very modest white gown - I think the modesty is beautiful because it would symbolize the virgin's purity and that her body would never be seen by any earthly husband. And of course, the veil :) I love all the symbolism here, cause it makes it so clear. I think the ones that are very traditional are the ones that I like the most personally, I also think it's good if the gown is more of a simple white gown, not too much into modern fashions, but more classic.

Edited August 18, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[Ima Lurker]

I have also read Therese Ivers’ book—even though obviously I’m a few years past planning my consecration, I like to keep up with whatever new literature is out there on CVs. :) 

 

I appreciate all the effort Miss Ivers put into writing it, and I think it could be very helpful for candidates who are actually at the point of needing to plan their consecration ceremony and reception (which I think was her intended audience, anyway). But, I personally would not recommend this book for women who are first discerning this vocation.

 

This is absolutely NOT directed at any specific person here, but I think it’s very easy to over-romanticize consecrated virginity.

 

For one thing, the Rite of Consecration itself is a lot more dramatic than most religious profession ceremonies, and bridal imagery is sort of just intrinsically romantic.But also, aspiring consecrated virgins don’t have all the “reality checks” that romantically-inclined aspiring nuns and Sisters have.

 

Even if a diocese actually has a formation program for consecrated virgins, right now it’s extremely unlikely that it will be anywhere near as comprehensive as the formation programs that religious, seminarians, or even candidates for the permanent diaconate have. Also, an aspiring CV will lack the grounding influence of community life, and she might not be able to be in contact with any local older CVs who could serve as a role model for how this vocation is lived out through all the trials and tribulations of real life.

 

I am all for having a beautiful consecration day (although, in my own personal opinion, I think having a beautiful yet simple celebration is more in keeping with the spirit of this vocation). But I do think the focus of the early stages of discernment should be about considering the different elements involved in how you hope to live a beautiful consecrated life. 

 

Umm, thank you for opinion? Today I learned that some people think that phatmassers discerning their vocation to CV tend to be sentimental and overly romantic. Wow. That hasn't been my read when seeing grown adults on VS. ;-)

 

Ms. Ivers book is full of citations from the Rite itself as well as the Magisterial teachings of the Church. I learned about the Bridal insignia which is given to us by the Church for the CV which is very clearly cited. This book is what its title claims. It's a guide. I read it and I'm not even discerning. I enjoyed it.

 

I do appreciate everything that you, Sponsa Christi, have to say but I don't think you understand that this is about posting pictures of wedding dresses, not shaming people who are having a little fun thinking beautiful things. I was taught that we should speak often of our desires (for me it's heaven and the CV vocation is one I merely hold dear in my heart) because it can spur us on in this vale of tears and it can help us keep our spirits high which is sometimes hard to do.

 

I really don't understand why you felt it necessary to say what you did. Perhaps you could start a new thread on what you think of Ms. Ivers and sentimentality but since it's rather inflammatory, perhaps you could put your thread on the debate table? I only say this because I've noticed recurring complaints from some of the gentler PMers on VS who just want to keep things positive.

 

There is one last thing I'd like to say and that is that if I understand you rightly, you're going on the record saying that the bridal signs that the Church gives are too sentimental for you. As much as I admire and respect you, I utterly disagree with your position in this.

 

That being said, I've found a couple more pictures that are really beautiful and lend distinction to the Catholic women who are choosing to say yes to God in this unique vocation and I hope to post them soon.

 

Thank you.

 

And to those of you who don't like this kind of talk, apologies in advance for the discomfort you felt in reading this. I just felt I needed to get it out. Sorry, and thank you. :blush: :blush:

 

[Ima Lurker]

For anyone curious, in her book, Ms Ivers explains the symbolism behind the different parts of the ritual. For example, did you know that an option some CVs use for their wedding is an alb and she goes on to say why. I checked her website and found photos of CVs wearing albs. Not wedding dresses. Here's the link where I found it! oihaveavocation.com/blog/archives/107

 

What I personally liked about the pamphlet is that it gives insight into the nature of the vocation explaining the bridal symbolism as it has been given to us by our Church. I think it's a good read because it's informative and fun, and anyone starting to discern COULD get a better idea of certain ways to plan, which is especially helpful since it isn't a Religious Community where everything is automatically planned for (like flowers, for instance) by other people! But that's just my take. If you have a kindle and are a member of amazon prime, the book is free to borrow.

 

d

 

[Sponsa-Christi]

MarysLittleFlower,

 

 

 

I see what Sponsa Christi is saying about not forgetting about the consecrated life while thinking about the consecration day! it's like how people can put in so much effort into planning their wedding and forget to think about the actual marriage  ;) lol.

 

Exactly!

 

 

 

However, yes it's hard not to think about this, lol, for anyone inclined to this.

 

I know! ;)

 

I'm not saying that thinking about the "fun stuff" is bad--just that aspiring CVs and discerners need to be careful not to let the fun stuff obscure what's really important. 

 

For all the time you (and I mean "you" in the most general sense--I'm not picking on you personally, MLF!) spend thinking about what your dress will look like, or what kind of flowers you'll have, or what image you'll have on your holy cards...make sure you spend at least twice as much time considering the more substantial elements of consecrated virginity. For example, spend time thinking of concrete ways you might serve the Church after you're consecrated...or getting used to praying the Liturgy of the Hours...or reading and mediating on the lives of the early CV saints...or in prayerfully considering the challenges of this life and talking with Jesus about how He might help you deal with them.

 

Or if you must daydream...maybe you could daydream about what "motto" you would want to guide your consecrated life (e.g., something like: "I rejoice heartily in my God..." or "I am my Beloved's..."); or about readings you would want at your consecration Mass? That way, you're not only daydreaming, but you're also interacting with Scripture and opening up more ways for the Lord to speak to your heart. :)

 

Edited August 19, 2013 by Sponsa-Christi

[Ima Lurker]

Ok, but you didn't do this on any other bridal thread, just this one.

 

To be honest, I do feel singled out and attacked because you haven't done this on the other future nun or wedding gown for nuns or the many other places. I was hurt.

 

If you don't like the debate table (which I understand), critique the book on your website.

 

You are not a theologian, a canon lawyer yet, and from your picture, you're very young so perhaps this is naivete when you set yourself up to preach to everybody and try shame me publicly with condescending opinions of the thread I started. I have yet to see you actually cite a Church document which backs up your many opinions. Ms. Ivers uses citations, you have not. She is a canon lawyer, a theologian and appears to be respected by her colleagues. That is not to say that you are not respected but Ms. Ivers is not here to defend herself. That's hardly honorable on your part.

 

I'm done with this. If we can't stick to the wedding gowns and rings and veils and share what we're learning about the significance of each, then this post is pointless.

 

For the record, I appreciated Ms. Ivers' explanations of the 3 things above.

 

And I'm sorry that I started this thread since it hasn't been the cheerful tone that I thought some people were looking for.

 

[Ima Lurker]

If I chose a dress, I'd choose something simple but elegant.  Definitely something modest, too, of course!  I like these dresses:

 

http://www.ofwedding.net/img/The-Vintage-Wedding-Dress-3.jpg (so pretty!)

 

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-LJVOXefny8E/UAi3-L73xzI/AAAAAAAAELM/BY0xNK0cmA4/s1600/4213df69ca5ee7c0_Vintage_Wedding_Dress_B%5B1%5D.jpg (I love the simplicity)

 

http://s4.thisnext.com/media/largest_dimension/A4C80F39.jpg

 

http://www.woweddingdress.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/small_image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/1/9/1971351_1_m.jpg (I'd change the sash to light blue)

 

http://iamshallow.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/1960-empire-flowy-wedding-dress-3.jpg

 

 

I am not sure if you are allowed to choose the Gospel readings or the other readings but, if I was, I'd like:

 

First reading: Isaiah 62

 

Responsorial:  Psalm 34

 

Second reading: Revelation 19:1, 5-9

 

Gospel:  Luke 1:26-56 (The Annunciation and the Visitation)

 

I think I would choose to carry a lamp because of the passage from Matthew 25:1-13.  Something like this would be suitable:

 

 

I hope that if I am consecrated to a life of virginity, that I will be able to prostrate in front of the altar and have the Litany of Saints which is what is done at Vow Ceremonies for Religious and the ordination of priests.

 

I got to click on your links provided,

I think the dresses you found are very beautiful. Even if you discern otherwise, perhaps having this here will help others who end up hearing God's call and answering it find something suitable.

 

And I thought I'd add, my friend who chose an earthly husband, got a lovely dress on ebay that was worth thousands (a designer dress, very modest) for around $200! So as a practical suggestion, if you or anyone reading this ends up needing a dress, remember to try ebay just in case!

 

Peace! :)

 

[Sponsa-Christi]

Dear Ima,

 

I’m sorry if I offend you with my comments; I truly did not mean to. I was not trying to single you out—the reason I commented on the thread about CVs and not on a similar thread about nuns is that, in general, I feel like I have more to contribute to the threads on consecrated virginity.

 

And to that end…I do have a Master’s degree in theology, so I am qualified to teach it up to an undergraduate level. (Not sure if that makes me an official “theologian,” though! :) ) I might be relatively young, but I have been a consecrated virgin for 4.5 years, after having seriously discerned consecrated virginity for four years prior to my consecration. I know in the big picture that’s not a terribly long time, but I think it is long enough to have some at least some idea of what this vocation is all about.

 

I honestly wasn’t trying to shame anyone here, and in general I don’t think phatmassers are an overly-sentimental bunch. And I don’t think that occasionally talking about the “fun” aspects of consecrated virginity is a bad thing at all!

 

But, because the “externals” of consecrated virginity are so beautiful, I think that even for well-grounded discerners, there is a serious risk of focusing on the externals rather than on the long-term living out of this vocation. I meant my posts as gentle reminders, which were motivated out of sincere charity and concern for those who may be my future sisters in Christ.

 

I also don’t have anything personal against Therese Ivers. All I’m saying is that I don’t think her book is the best thing for women just beginning to discern a vocation to consecrated virginity. It’s sort of like when a spiritual director tells someone who’s just starting to take prayer seriously that they’re not ready to read St. John of the Cross’ “Dark Night of the Soul.” This doesn’t mean the spiritual director has a personal dislike of St. John of the Cross—it’s only an acknowledgement that certain books which are helpful at certain places in one’s life aren’t always the best thing for absolute beginners. 

[Ima Lurker]

So you won't stop hijacking my thread and making this about you instead of what it's supposed to be.

 

Thanks, when I found I didn't agree with your ideas, I left you alone. I have several scholar friends who offered me thought out educated arguments against everything you had said but I didn't post any of it because it would uncharitable and turn a thread into a debate AND THIS IS NOT THE DEBATE TABLE and neither were your threads. It's called courtesy.

 

I'm surprised that you consider yourself charitable and educated. You have not shown charity or good manners here.

 

Guys/girls, I don't mind of this thread doesn't continue. If I'm to be so rudely hijacked, I'd rather not pursue it but find a better place to share ideas with open polite people. Because this is the internet and we can all work together here on PM to get along since there's plenty of space for everyone, or be rude jerks.

 

I have noticed that wherever ABC posts, you post to disagree.

 

Anything that disagrees with your notions (which you've been REALLY open about on just about every thread pertaining to this vocation), you immediately have to push your way through, have your say, discredit anyone who disagrees with you, and derail the original thought. I've lurked for a long time, I only recently created an account. It's been really hard and painful to come out of my shell and try to be more social.

 

I guess all I can add is, "Haters gonna hate."

 

Peace.

 

I just can't fathom what you have against this pamphlet. I'm hardly a scholar. It's an easy fun read, which is AWESOME considering that there are few publications in English (according to many here) that an easily accessible book should be read. Just like it would be ridiculous to say, "I won't read everything on Carmel I can get my hands on until I'm a Carmelite so that I'm properly trained."

 

 

Edited August 19, 2013 by Ima Lurker

[Maggyie]

I like the slightly bohemian dress worn by the girl cutting the cake! Her crown of flowers looks lovely too.

 

Is it wrong of me though that it feels kind of sad that she's cutting the cake all by herself?

 

I think CVs should try to avoid most of the trappings of a modern wedding, which even between two human spouses can be a bit much! For a wedding to Jesus the arrangements should be very sedate and sober. No bouquet toss and obviously no garter (yikes!) Elaborate cakes, huge flower arrangements, cathedral-length veils etc can easily be a distraction in an ordinary Nuptial Mass and I think probably have no place in a consecration ceremony. It's so cool that the Rite actually calls for bridesmaids! I wonder if there's less "bridesmaid drama" than there is in ordinary weddings - I would certainly hope so ;) ;)

[Ima Lurker]

I like the slightly bohemian dress worn by the girl cutting the cake! Her crown of flowers looks lovely too.

 

Is it wrong of me though that it feels kind of sad that she's cutting the cake all by herself?

 

I think CVs should try to avoid most of the trappings of a modern wedding, which even between two human spouses can be a bit much! For a wedding to Jesus the arrangements should be very sedate and sober. No bouquet toss and obviously no garter (yikes!) Elaborate cakes, huge flower arrangements, cathedral-length veils etc can easily be a distraction in an ordinary Nuptial Mass and I think probably have no place in a consecration ceremony. It's so cool that the Rite actually calls for bridesmaids! I wonder if there's less "bridesmaid drama" than there is in ordinary weddings - I would certainly hope so ;) ;)

 

Thank you for your thoughts. Personally, I love cake. I was a bit envious on that one... ;)  When you refer to modern trappings, you mean take her wedding gown? Because it's a Spousal Consecration. So since it's spousal, I kind of got the impression that this would sort of be important, and the BIG ceremony helps us to understand what is going on, and quite frankly, shouldn't we celebrate with pomp and ceremony? She is consecrated to God, giving Him everything. And that doesn't deserve a beautiful ceremony? I was taught that we build our Churches beautifully with fantastic art so that we can try to raise our minds and hearts to higher things.

 

I found another picture, sorry for poor quality but it's very beautiful. REALLY simple!

 

 

"Wedding gowns are theologically correct and traditional garb for Consecrations. Albs are another somewhat popular option you may wish to consider. They have the advantage of being a symbol of our baptismal commitment." from "A Practical Guide to consecration Planning for Virgins Being Consecrated to a Life of Virginity." Sorry, my kindle doesn't give me page numbers. It's 22% of the way into the book, lol.

[abrideofChrist]

Maggie,

 

I would tend to agree with the idea that the CV should not go overboard in spending $50,000 or more for a wedding.  On the other hand, the Rite itself calls for certain essential elements.  If you read Therese Ivers' book, she quotes from the Rite of Consecration which refers to the veil and ring as "bridal insignia".  (I also borrowed a copy because I'm an Amazon Prime member for my kindle.)  I was just reading a scholarly article on CV veils.  Interestingly enough, it referred to Tertullian who mentions the fact that the veil for the CV was embroidered in gold.  The CV ceremony has always been similar to a wedding in the Catholic Church. Liturgists have noted that when the Bishops who wrote the Rite over the centuries revised the Rite, they always took care to make it similar to the Rite of Marriage.  For example, when people started wearing rings, the Bishops inserted the ring!  When brides wore crowns, the Bishops added a crown to the Consecration!  Now we are back to the "sober" bridal insignia and patterns of the veil (which goes back to apostolic times) and ring (which is very ancient) and the Liturgy of the Hours.  When the emphasis in the Rite is on the Bridal imagery, then we cannot fault CVs for being brides!  We should not critique long veils or trains (I have seen pictures of both in CVs) because this is not against the heavenly wedding ceremony that this Rite is all about.  In fact, we have long cathedral length trains for cardinals!

 

 

CVs don't make a vow of poverty.  So we cannot fault them if they choose to wear a gold ring or a ring with a pearl or a precious stone. 

 

CVs are given a lot of options in the Rite of Consecration!  CVs can choose between a candle and a lamp for their consecration!  Some CVs use candles, and others use lamps.  Candles can represent the baptismal candle (and CVs can use their baptismal candle).  Lamps represent the faithful virgin.  The prostration for the Litany of the Saints is very ancient.  CVs can choose which hand the bishop puts the ring on because they both have different meanings to which a CV may be drawn to.  Miss Ivers explains this in her guidebook. She even explained why she wrote the book. The Rite of Consecration is one of the most Solemn and powerful Rites in the Church. All of these details help teach the faithful through different signs what the vocation is all about. 

[nikita92]

I just want the hair to be elegant and classy! "UPDO" to match the occasion... Not in a loosey goosey.. Casual style.

[Ima Lurker]

Dear Ima,

 

I’m sorry if I offend you with my comments; I truly did not mean to. I was not trying to single you out—the reason I commented on the thread about CVs and not on a similar thread about nuns is that, in general, I feel like I have more to contribute to the threads on consecrated virginity.

 

And to that end…I do have a Master’s degree in theology, so I am qualified to teach it up to an undergraduate level. (Not sure if that makes me an official “theologian,” though! :) ) I might be relatively young, but I have been a consecrated virgin for 4.5 years, after having seriously discerned consecrated virginity for four years prior to my consecration. I know in the big picture that’s not a terribly long time, but I think it is long enough to have some at least some idea of what this vocation is all about.

 

I honestly wasn’t trying to shame anyone here, and in general I don’t think phatmassers are an overly-sentimental bunch. And I don’t think that occasionally talking about the “fun” aspects of consecrated virginity is a bad thing at all!

 

But, because the “externals” of consecrated virginity are so beautiful, I think that even for well-grounded discerners, there is a serious risk of focusing on the externals rather than on the long-term living out of this vocation. I meant my posts as gentle reminders, which were motivated out of sincere charity and concern for those who may be my future sisters in Christ.

 

I also don’t have anything personal against Therese Ivers. All I’m saying is that I don’t think her book is the best thing for women just beginning to discern a vocation to consecrated virginity. It’s sort of like when a spiritual director tells someone who’s just starting to take prayer seriously that they’re not ready to read St. John of the Cross’ “Dark Night of the Soul.” This doesn’t mean the spiritual director has a personal dislike of St. John of the Cross—it’s only an acknowledgement that certain books which are helpful at certain places in one’s life aren’t always the best thing for absolute beginners. 

 

I stand corrected corrected on your level of teaching. I am grateful that there are people like you who have dedicated your life to intellectual studies.

 

I'm sorry if I am rude, it's the product of exasperation.

 

I was sincere when I suggested you critique the book on your blog. I would very happily read your ideas.

 

It is not that I think your words have no value. I just think there's a better place to post them.

Thank you.

 

Respectfully,

Ima