Interview With Pope Francis In America Magazine

[arfink]

He's not saying it's an afterthought. Surely you must realize that one does not merely download the holistic thought of the church in one great gulp. That is humanly impossible. St. Ignatious has famously said

 

"[In seeking to help our neighbor] we should not move straight to what is highest and most perfect, but proceed slowly and gently, from lower things to higher."

 

and

 

"We must adapt ourselves to people's capacities. Try to pour too much at once into a narrow-necked bottle, and you will just spill it and fail to get it inside."

 

I think this is what the Pope is trying to say. Not that we must discard any of the good things the Church teaches, but that we must be realistic. If we wish to evangelize, we are doing so with real human beings, with real limitations. And you can't just start with sexual ethics. That would be foolish and counter productive.

[Apotheoun]

Well, I think Pope Francis would rightly tell you not to violate your conscience in these matters.

True. Maybe his election as bishop of Rome was meant to help me to grow spiritually by converting to Eastern Orthodoxy. I suppose only time - and intense prayer - will give me the answer I am looking for.

[Apotheoun]

He's not saying it's an afterthought. Surely you must realize that one does not merely download the holistic thought of the church in one great gulp. That is humanly impossible. St. Ignatious has famously said

 

"[In seeking to help our neighbor] we should not move straight to what is highest and most perfect, but proceed slowly and gently, from lower things to higher."

 

and

 

"We must adapt ourselves to people's capacities. Try to pour too much at once into a narrow-necked bottle, and you will just spill it and fail to get it inside."

 

I think this is what the Pope is trying to say. Not that we must discard any of the good things the Church teaches, but that we must be realistic. If we wish to evangelize, we are doing so with real human beings, with real limitations. And you can't just start with sexual ethics. That would be foolish and counter productive.

The problem I see with a lot of Pope Francis' off-the-cuff comments, his personal letter to a newspaper editor, and his interviews with magazines, is that his answers to questions can be taken in many different ways. It seems that his answers to questions really only produce more questions, and often troubling questions.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

He's not saying it's an afterthought. Surely you must realize that one does not merely download the holistic thought of the church in one great gulp. That is humanly impossible. St. Ignatious has famously said

 

"[In seeking to help our neighbor] we should not move straight to what is highest and most perfect, but proceed slowly and gently, from lower things to higher."

 

and

 

"We must adapt ourselves to people's capacities. Try to pour too much at once into a narrow-necked bottle, and you will just spill it and fail to get it inside."

 

I think this is what the Pope is trying to say. Not that we must discard any of the good things the Church teaches, but that we must be realistic. If we wish to evangelize, we are doing so with real human beings, with real limitations. And you can't just start with sexual ethics. That would be foolish and counter productive.

I thought that Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict always gave balanced preaching on the Gospel. I never took their teaching to be "overly" focused upon moral questions of the day. But one has to admit that Western society itself is fixated on these moral questions, and if the Church - even in good faith - remains quiet in response, or even gives the appearance of minimizing the importance of these things, it does look like a surrender to the prevailing hedonistic culture. Perception - at least in our times due to the mass media - often is reality.

[Basilisa Marie]

The more interviews Pope Francis gives, the more concerned I become. I left Protestantism for Catholicism for dogmatic and moral reasons, if these things are going to be de-emphasized, I will have to re-evaluate my own spiritual life and journey.

 

I don't think it's about saying dogma and moral teachings are unimportant.  I think the pope is trying to re-emphasize the proper ordering of the goods.  We can't pretend that all Church teachings have the same weight, and we can't pretend that talking about the Church's moral positions is more important than spreading the Gospel.  We have to be focused on Christ, and not make "issues" into an idol.  And I think the pope is saying that if we have that focus on Christ and the Gospel, orthodox catechesis and moral teaching will naturally flow from that.  

 

Did you see the part where he talks about emphasizing synods, and how he hopes it'll help bring the East and West closer together, learning to walk united even with their differences? I thought that was cool. :)

[arfink]

The problem I see with a lot of Pope Francis' off-the-cuff comments, his personal letter to a newspaper editor, and his interviews with magazines, is that his answers to questions can be taken in many different ways. It seems that his answers to questions really only produce more questions, and often troubling questions.

 

Every pope has been misquoted and misunderstood. Benedict XVI got the Evil Emperor Palpatine treatment for statements at least as carefully considered as Pope Francis'. Get used to it. The world must misunderstand Christians, because it is the world.

[Apotheoun]

I don't think it's about saying dogma and moral teachings are unimportant.  I think the pope is trying to re-emphasize the proper ordering of the goods.  We can't pretend that all Church teachings have the same weight, and we can't pretend that talking about the Church's moral positions is more important than spreading the Gospel.  We have to be focused on Christ, and not make "issues" into an idol.  And I think the pope is saying that if we have that focus on Christ and the Gospel, orthodox catechesis and moral teaching will naturally flow from that.  

 

Did you see the part where he talks about emphasizing synods, and how he hopes it'll help bring the East and West closer together, learning to walk united even with their differences? I thought that was cool. :)

I guess it is just another example of people reading things written by Pope Francis, or listening to what he has to say in interviews, coming away with different impressions as to the content of his message. 

[arfink]

I thought that Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict always gave balanced preaching on the Gospel. I never took their teaching to be "overly" focused upon moral questions of the day. But one has to admit that Western society itself is fixated on these moral questions, and if the Church - even in good faith - remains quiet in response, or even gives the appearance of minimizing the importance of these things, it does look like a surrender to the prevailing hedonistic culture. Perception - at least in our times due to the mass media - often is reality.

 

Perception is not reality. Screw what the world thinks. If they want to perceive the truth wrongly, and see exactly what they want to see, that is upon their heads.

[Apotheoun]

Every pope has been misquoted and misunderstood. Benedict XVI got the Evil Emperor Palpatine treatment for statements at least as carefully considered as Pope Francis'. Get used to it. The world must misunderstand Christians, because it is the world.

I always ignored the media's attempts to demonize Pope Benedict. In fact, I was always impressed by what Pope Benedict had to say, and by his keen theological insights into the mystery of Christ. But what we are discussing at the present moment is not a media attack on Pope Francis; instead, it is an interview he gave that I have no doubt is meant to be quite supportive of him. So in this case it is not - at least for me - an example of the media attacking the pope, but rather the pope saying freely what he thinks about various issues.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

Perception is not reality. Screw what the world thinks. If they want to perceive the truth wrongly, and see exactly what they want to see, that is upon their heads.

My apologies, because I did not fully convey what I intended in my last sentence of the quoted post. What I meant is that for modern society perception is reality. And that is a scary thought indeed.

[arfink]

I always ignored the media's attempts to demonize Pope Benedict. In fact, I was always impressed by what Pope Benedict had to say, and by his keen theological insights into the mystery of Christ. But what we are discussing at the present moment is not a media attack on Pope Francis; instead, it is an interview he gave that I have no doubt is meant to be quite supportive of him. So in this case it is not - at least for me - an example of the media attacking the pope, but rather the pope saying freely what he thinks about various issues.

 

And yet we know the world can attack in two ways: by directly attacking the person, as in Benedict XVI, and by attacking those who hear the words of the person, as we hear with Pope Francis, when the world suggests that he is saying things he is not. Satan attacked Jesus this way at times, seeing to place him on a pedestal of falsehood, on the parapet of the Temple.

[Apotheoun]

Let me say this, just for the sake of clarity: I do not dislike Pope Francis, and I think he is probably well-intentioned, but he does - as he intimates in his interview - come off as rather naive, and perhaps that is why his media interactions often raise more questions than they answer. 

[Apotheoun]

And yet we know the world can attack in two ways: by directly attacking the person, as in Benedict XVI, and by attacking those who hear the words of the person, as we hear with Pope Francis, when the world suggests that he is saying things he is not. Satan attacked Jesus this way at times, seeing to place him on a pedestal of falsehood, on the parapet of the Temple.

So you think that this present interview is an attack on Pope Francis? It seems to me that it is just the opposite, after all Pope Francis was not forced to say the things he did. I think - even if I may not agree with everything he said - that he is honestly relating in the interview what he truly believes. I have no reason to think that his words in the interview are being twisted for some nefarious purpose.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Apotheoun

[blazeingstar]

What exactly were you disappointed with? I don't remember remarks about co-habitating couples.  

 

You sound a lot like the older brother from last Sunday's Gospel.  I don't say that to be mean - I say that because I often feel the exact same way. I get frustrated, too, when it seems like I'm the only one following the rules but don't get any benefits from it. Something like 98% of Catholic couples use some form of birth control, next to no one remains a virgin until marriage, etc.  But it's our job to try and invite Johnny and Sally back to church, to make the effort to be understanding if they're living together for financial reasons but not having sex, and to do our best to explain to them that having your infant baptized means that you're taking on a serious responsibility to actively raise your child in the faith. 

I do agree with you when you say the leadership has spent too much time on issues and not enough time educating people about Church teaching and ESPECIALLY why Church teaching is great for them. I really wish some of our bishops and priests would spend just as much time and effort supporting married couples as they do denouncing gay marriage. The fact that the divorce rate among Catholics is equal to the national average (50%) is appalling to me. Supporting and encouraging holy married couples would be an incredibly powerful statement of the wonderful goodness and truth of the Church's teaching on marriage.  Maybe people would take us seriously on sexual ethics if we actually had more people walking the talk. 

But the thing is, I think all of that is in line with what the Pope said in the rest of the interview.  He talks about placing the Gospel first, then catechesis flowing through that, and moral teachings flowing through catechesis.  He cautions against making "issues" bigger than the Gospel, and I take that to mean acting like gay marriage is the only marriage issue, for example.  He says that "issues" aren't the whole picture, that there's more to it.  But at the same time, offering support for people who ARE doing things the right way doesn't necessarily mean we stop reaching out to Johnny and Sally.  
 

 

 

The problem is right now is that you have the traditionalists and and then those seen as radicals (the right to life crowd) or the mainstream, which everyone seems to be afraid of telling the truth.

 

I'm burned out on spiritual life.  This is not being the older son, I feel like this is the church running out and comforting the younger son when he's still out with prostitutes.  They are in no way willing to follow the rules, they have not asked for forgiveness, in general they are looking for validation of their sin.

[Basilisa Marie]

Let me say this, just for the sake of clarity: I do not dislike Pope Francis, and I think he is probably well-intentioned, but he does - as he intimates in his interview - come off as rather naive, and perhaps that is why his media interactions often raise more questions than they answer. 

 

Well, in the interview he does admit that he's a bit naive, and says we should be worried if we think we have all the answers nailed down, so the fact that his media interactions raise more questions than answers makes sense. :)