What Would You Do?

[OnlySunshine]

I need advice for a friend who does not want to sign up for a Phatmass account at this time but needs some help and I wasn't sure what to say.  She has been discerning religious life for a number of years and has visited a few communities.  She visited one in particular and felt really called to their charism and apostolate but the Vocation Director told her that she needed to wait at least a year to mature and work on her spiritual life.  She (like me) doesn't have a spiritual director because she is unable to find one.  However, she still wants to discern with this community but she's afraid to contact them again.  The VD was rather blunt with her (I saw the email that was sent and my friend was quite upset) but that was more than a year ago and the Vocation Director has changed.  She believes that VD was trying to tell her, in so many words, that she didn't have a vocation to the community and made it so she was unable to talk to a Superior.  She tried calling the Superior and emailing her because she didn't think the VD was handling her discernment appropriately and basically felt as though she was dismissed.  But she feels as though she can't get away from the strong pull of the community's charism and doesn't know what to do.  She wants to know if she should write to the Superior to tell her what happened even though it was over a year ago?  I was reluctant to tell her she should but it seems as if foul play might have occurred.  Several red flags went up especially when the VD told her that if she couldn't follow the VD's advice, that she didn't have a vocation to their community.  I understand that the VD is the main source of communication for a community but I don't think it was appropriate to be barred from speaking to a Superior if you're uncomfortable talking to the VD.

 

Anyway, have any of you run into this problem before?  What would you do?

Edited July 22, 2014 by MaterMisericordiae

[AdvocataNostra]

I have been in a similar situation. What ended up happening was the community changed vocations directors (this community changes the assignments of the sisters regularly) and I started fresh with the new vd. I don't really have any advice. I ended up not being called to that community but I needed to fully discern with them to find the community I am now seriously discerning with. It's hard. I'll keep your friend in my prayers.

[OnlySunshine]

I have been in a similar situation. What ended up happening was the community changed vocations directors (this community changes the assignments of the sisters regularly) and I started fresh with the new vd. I don't really have any advice. I ended up not being called to that community but I needed to fully discern with them to find the community I am now seriously discerning with. It's hard. I'll keep your friend in my prayers.

 

I kind of recommended something similar.  I thought that if the VD was someone different, that there would be more of a chance to discern with the community again.  But my friend is worried that they have a file or something of former discerners or that the former VD will tell the current one what happened and her discernment with them will be "tainted."  The charism is very unique and difficult to come by.  Thanks for your prayers.

[Lilllabettt]

She tried calling the Superior and emailing her because she didn't think the VD was handling her discernment appropriately and basically felt as though she was dismissed.  

 

 

If she tried calling/emailing the Superior what came of that?

If she emailed and the Superior just never responded, I would take that as the Superior leaving the issue with the VD.

In which case, if I were in your friend's position,  I would not despair of contacting them again ... but before I did I would make good and proper sure that I'd addressed what the VDs concerns were with regards to maturity ... getting an education, a job, living on my own, whatever it is they said was lacking ... and I would wait until it had been addressed for some time. That way I could go to them with evidence of my progress. They would see I was humble enough to accept direction.

[Sister Marie]

Well, without seeing the email (which I am NOT suggesting or asking you post :) )  I can only give a few thoughts based on what you wrote.

 

First, the vocation director suggested that she was not mature at the time to continue discernment with the community and that she needed to wait a year.  That, to me, doesn't indicate that she wasn't open to working with her but that your friend might need to work on a few things.  Obviously, I don't know what the email said or how it was said, but I don't think your friend can make any decisions based on what she "thinks" or "believes" the VD was trying to say... she only knows what the VD actually said.  

 

Maybe your friend did this, but after receiving that email saying she wasn't mature enough, the first thing she should have done was ask. "What do I need to work on?"  Asking the VD what exactly her concerns are would have allowed your friend to work on her issues throughout the year and would have shown that she respected the VD and that she was willing to work on herself in order to live the life.  Did your friend do anything purposely to try to grow throughout this year?  I'm not saying she didn't but this would be the first step.

 

I would not go to the superior about the sister.  I only have what you wrote to go by so I could be completely wrong, but I would read it as if your friend didn't get what she wanted and so decided to appeal to a higher authority.  I'm not accusing her of doing that at all... it might just be how I'm reading the situation.  Religious life doesn't work like that (you can't go to a higher up because you are displeased with the person you spoke with) especially if you aren't even a member of the community.  If I were your friend, I would email the new VD, tell her about my previous correspondence (just the essential parts) and the things that were suggested in order to grow in maturity, share how I worked throughout the year on those issues, and ask if I could come to meet with her and discuss the possibility of a vocation to the community.   

[OnlySunshine]

If she tried calling/emailing the Superior what came of that?

If she emailed and the Superior just never responded, I would take that as the Superior leaving the issue with the VD.

In which case, if I were in your friend's position,  I would not despair of contacting them again ... but before I did I would make good and proper sure that I'd addressed what the VDs concerns were with regards to maturity ... getting an education, a job, living on my own, whatever it is they said was lacking ... and I would wait until it had been addressed for some time. That way I could go to them with evidence of my progress. They would see I was humble enough to accept direction.

 

To be honest, it was kind of weird the way it was handled.  She was given the Superior's email and thought it was for the Superior only since it was her name but it seemed as though it was intercepted by the VD.  Same with the phone calls.  Even though the VD and the Superior live in separate convent houses, the VD seemed to know when my friend called.  I wonder if they got her name from caller ID.  She was never actually able to talk to the Superior after she left.

 

As for the maturity issue, everything has been addressed.  She knew that was important.  It's just finding the courage to contact them again to let them know.  :)

[Lilllabettt]

To be honest, it was kind of weird the way it was handled.  She was given the Superior's email and thought it was for the Superior only since it was her name but it seemed as though it was intercepted by the VD.  Same with the phone calls.  Even though the VD and the Superior live in separate convent houses, the VD seemed to know when my friend called.  I wonder if they got her name from caller ID.  She was never actually able to talk to the Superior after she left.

 

As for the maturity issue, everything has been addressed.  She knew that was important.  It's just finding the courage to contact them again to let them know.  :)

 

 

Well yeah, honestly they talk. 

 

Many years ago I knew a girl who was very sweet but not quite grown up yet. She visited one community, and they told her she did not have a vocation there at that time because of the maturity issue. Then she contacted another province and asked to visit there. And she was told no, because the VDs from the two provinces had spoken about her.

 

She visited a number of communities and they gave her a similar type of response ... but initially she wasn't ready to hear it. She kept going from place to place and sort of "singeing" bridges. Finally she was accepted somewhere and was actually going to be in the same batch as me where I entered - but before the entrance day came the community asked her to wait.  That was a tremendous upset for her and it kind of hit her like a 2x4. But she was finally able to take the community's advice. She went to school. She grew up. (now she has kids)

 

I guess what I'm saying is ... I don't know. If it were me, a year would be too soon for me to think about contacting them again. Real change takes time. When they "let" me enter I was 21 with a couple years of college and a year of full time work under my belt, living far away from family.  But  I was not grown up yet and it was in fact a problem. 

 

**ETA: if your friend thinks she has addressed their concerns she should take Sister Marie's advice and email the new VD about the progress she's made. I know for me I would just want my "case" to be firm in my mind before I risked reopening the discussion***

Edited July 23, 2014 by Lilllabettt

[OnlySunshine]

Well, without seeing the email (which I am NOT suggesting or asking you post :) )  I can only give a few thoughts based on what you wrote.

 

First, the vocation director suggested that she was not mature at the time to continue discernment with the community and that she needed to wait a year.  That, to me, doesn't indicate that she wasn't open to working with her but that your friend might need to work on a few things.  Obviously, I don't know what the email said or how it was said, but I don't think your friend can make any decisions based on what she "thinks" or "believes" the VD was trying to say... she only knows what the VD actually said.  

 

Maybe your friend did this, but after receiving that email saying she wasn't mature enough, the first thing she should have done was ask. "What do I need to work on?"  Asking the VD what exactly her concerns are would have allowed your friend to work on her issues throughout the year and would have shown that she respected the VD and that she was willing to work on herself in order to live the life.  Did your friend do anything purposely to try to grow throughout this year?  I'm not saying she didn't but this would be the first step.

 

I would not go to the superior about the sister.  I only have what you wrote to go by so I could be completely wrong, but I would read it as if your friend didn't get what she wanted and so decided to appeal to a higher authority.  I'm not accusing her of doing that at all... it might just be how I'm reading the situation.  Religious life doesn't work like that (you can't go to a higher up because you are displeased with the person you spoke with) especially if you aren't even a member of the community.  If I were your friend, I would email the new VD, tell her about my previous correspondence (just the essential parts) and the things that were suggested in order to grow in maturity, share how I worked throughout the year on those issues, and ask if I could come to meet with her and discuss the possibility of a vocation to the community.   

 

You and I must have posted at the same time because I totally skipped over your post.  Sorry!  :blush:

 

In any case, the reason my friend was so perplexed was that she was given a list of things to work on before she left her visit but was told to stay in contact with the community.  My friend, after emailing the Superior and getting nowhere, decided to email the VD and ask her for some advice and happened to mention that she was still interested in joining the community.  Not anything like, "I'm doing what you asked so I'd like to join now," but some genuine advice - especially since she was having trouble finding spiritual direction.  That's when the VD emailed her and said, "Because you are unwilling to follow our advice, we don't believe you have a vocation to our community."  She didn't give any advice or anything - just a brush-off sort of message that left my friend very upset.  My friend wasn't given any time to actually work on the things they asked her to work on.

 

Thank you for the advice about contacting the Superior.  I figured more people would know what to say in that regard so I'll pass that along.  My friend wants to know if waiting another year before contacting the Superior would be a better idea since she still wants to finish school anyway and get experience in the career field.  :)
 

[OnlySunshine]

Well yeah, honestly they talk. 

 

Many years ago I knew a girl who was very sweet but not quite grown up yet. She visited one community, and they told her she did not have a vocation there at that time because of the maturity issue. Then she contacted another province and asked to visit there. And she was told no, because the VDs from the two provinces had spoken about her.

 

She visited a number of communities and they gave her a similar type of response ... but initially she wasn't ready to hear it. She kept going from place to place and sort of "singeing" bridges. Finally she was accepted somewhere and was actually going to be in the same batch as me where I entered - but before the entrance day came the community asked her to wait.  That was a tremendous upset for her and it kind of hit her like a 2x4. But she was finally able to take the community's advice. She went to school. She grew up. (now she has kids)

 

I guess what I'm saying is ... I don't know. If it were me, a year would be too soon for me to think about contacting them again. Real change takes time. When they "let" me enter I was 21 with a couple years of college and a year of full time work under my belt, living far away from family.  But  I was not grown up yet and it was in fact a problem. 

 

**ETA: if your friend thinks she has addressed their concerns she should take Sister Marie's advice and email the new VD about the progress she's made. I know for me I would just want my "case" to be firm in my mind before I risked reopening the discussion***

 

Thank you for pointing me to Sr. Marie's post because I totally missed it.  My friend is wondering if waiting another year would be advisable since she is still finishing up school and wants to get a job in the career field so she has experience should this not work out.  I told her it might be a good idea because then it would give more of an opportunity for them to see how she's grown.  The community accepts later vocations so she has plenty of time.
 

[OnlySunshine]

You and I must have posted at the same time because I totally skipped over your post.  Sorry!  :blush:

 

In any case, the reason my friend was so perplexed was that she was given a list of things to work on before she left her visit but was told to stay in contact with the community.  My friend, after emailing the Superior and getting nowhere, decided to email the VD and ask her for some advice and happened to mention that she was still interested in joining the community.  Not anything like, "I'm doing what you asked so I'd like to join now," but some genuine advice - especially since she was having trouble finding spiritual direction.  That's when the VD emailed her and said, "Because you are unwilling to follow our advice, we don't believe you have a vocation to our community."  She didn't give any advice or anything - just a brush-off sort of message that left my friend very upset.  My friend wasn't given any time to actually work on the things they asked her to work on.

 

Thank you for the advice about contacting the Superior.  I figured more people would know what to say in that regard so I'll pass that along.  My friend wants to know if waiting another year before contacting the Superior would be a better idea since she still wants to finish school anyway and get experience in the career field.  :)
 

 

Whoops, I meant to say "before contacting the new VD" not the Superior.  :blush:

[IteAdJoseph]

"Let easy admission not be given to one who newly cometh to change his life; but, as the Apostle saith, "Try the spirits, whether they be of God" (1 Jn 4:1). If, therefore, the newcomer keepeth on knocking, and after four or five days it is seen that he patiently beareth the harsh treatment offered him and the difficulty of admission, and that he persevereth in his request, let admission be granted him, and let him live for a few days in the apartment of the guests."  

Rule of St Benedict, Ch. 58 (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/benedict/rule.lx.html)

[OnlySunshine]

"Let easy admission not be given to one who newly cometh to change his life; but, as the Apostle saith, "Try the spirits, whether they be of God" (1 Jn 4:1). If, therefore, the newcomer keepeth on knocking, and after four or five days it is seen that he patiently beareth the harsh treatment offered him and the difficulty of admission, and that he persevereth in his request, let admission be granted him, and let him live for a few days in the apartment of the guests."  

Rule of St Benedict, Ch. 58 (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/benedict/rule.lx.html)

 

I've heard that rule before, but this is not a Benedictine community.  ;)

[IteAdJoseph]

Perseverance in the face of adversity is not peculiar to Benedictine aspirants, my friend.

[Lilllabettt]

Thank you for pointing me to Sr. Marie's post because I totally missed it.  My friend is wondering if waiting another year would be advisable since she is still finishing up school and wants to get a job in the career field so she has experience should this not work out.  I told her it might be a good idea because then it would give more of an opportunity for them to see how she's grown.  The community accepts later vocations so she has plenty of time.
 

 

 

Well MM you know her better than I do, how much time she needs. I guess thinking about myself 2 or 3 years would probably work out ... like I said I would want to be sure I could make a strong case for myself before I risked approaching them again. Like I don't just have a full time job, but have proven I can hold on to it. I'm not just moved out, I've been living alone for awhile. That takes time.

 

I remember after I left the convent I was horrified at the thought that my medical condition would prevent me from trying religious life ever again. Hope can be a terrible thing you know? I wanted to know one way or the other, so that if it weren't possible I could move on. I talked to a bunch of different communities, and naturally most of them couldn't say one way or the other.

 

I remember Sister Mary Catherine of Summit was exceedingly kind and human to me. But one Sister emailed back sort of bluntly saying "well do you actually have a vocation? I think that's the real question." And my initial reaction to that was to think: why you barbaric cabbage!

 

But in all honesty the question I was asking, and the question she was asking, could only be answered with time passed. waiting on the Lord is so uncomfortable. 

[AdvocataNostra]

I wanted to add that I did follow the advice I was given to me by the first vd and told the new vd about what I was asked to do. I believe the vd had more insight into what I needed at the time than I could understand.