Yaatee Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Benedictine hospitality does not include allowing guests into the enclosure. I have been in two Benedictine monasteries, one in the US and one in the UK and both times I was allowed to stay in the guest quarters but not allowed access into the enclosure except when another woman and I were taking Gregorian chant lessons from one of the elderly nuns in the music room or when we were picking up or delivering food to the kitchen. We were not allowed just to wander around inside the enclosure and had to be accompanied by a nun.. It is more usual for Benedictine nuns to come outside the enclosure than Carmelites but for both Orders, permission is required. Also good points, nunsense. I suspect that the degree and extent of the enclosure may vary among the Benedictine communities. The communities you visited may be among the most conservative. I don't think that guests are allowed to "wander around" anywhere. However, I have seen photos of guests attending services, whilst sitting among the OSB nuns, and nuns also giving retreats to visitors without benefit of grille. I think that the concept of enclosure, which includes interaction with guests and the ability to leave the monastery is very different between the OSBs and the Carmelites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Paul Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 I am in the first stage:correspondence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Also good points, nunsense. I suspect that the degree and extent of the enclosure may vary among the Benedictine communities. The communities you visited may be among the most conservative. I don't think that guests are allowed to "wander around" anywhere. However, I have seen photos of guests attending services, whilst sitting among the OSB nuns, and nuns also giving retreats to visitors without benefit of grille. I think that the concept of enclosure, which includes interaction with guests and the ability to leave the monastery is very different between the OSBs and the Carmelites. You are correct. I was speaking of cloistered Benedictine communities. There are many that are not so strictly enclosed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sr Mary Catharine OP Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Benedictines follow either Papal Enclosure (which means the current norms by the Holy See) or constitutional enclosure. There is really no such thing canonically as "Strict Enclosure". The norms give quite a legitimate latitude for interpretation and circumstances are many and varied for an individual monastery throughout the world. This year there should be some new norms out replacing the current 1999 norms. A monastery may have it's own internal norms which are provided for by the norms of Papal Enclosure which aren't necessarily known by visitors to the monastery. For example, we have a hall in the basement which is outside the enclosure properly but which can be used by us as needed when we need to do things and need space. In another monastery one of the cloistered nuns is appointed as the sister who oversees the extern area and to visitors for a certain period of time. She moves about freely outside the enclosure and among guests. The Holy See knows that there are a lot of various needs among monasteries and this is taken care of between the monastery and the bishop, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Paul Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Papal enclousure for benedictines St.Benedict never asked they be cloistered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Papal enclousure for benedictines St.Benedict never asked they be cloistered That's strange you say that because it's certainly mentioned in the Rule of St Benedict. http://ealingmonks.org.uk/welcome/enclosure/ From Chapter 66 (http://www.holyrule.com/index.htm ) CHAPTER LXVI : Of the Porter of the Monastery Let a wise old man be placed at the door of the monastery, one who knoweth how to take and give an answer, and whose mature age doth not permit him to stray about. The porter should have a cell near the door, that they who come may always find one present from whom they may obtain an answer. As soon as anyone knocketh or a poor person calleth, let him answer, "Thanks be to God," or invoke a blessing, and with the meekness of the fear of God let him return an answer speedily in the fervor of charity. If the porter hath need of assistance, let him have a younger brother. If it can be done, the monastery should be so situated that all the necessaries, such as water, the mill, the garden, are enclosed, and the various arts may be plied inside of the monastery, so that there may be no need for the monks to go about outside, because it is not good for their souls. But we desire that this Rule be read quite often in the community, that none of the brethren may excuse himself of ignorance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4LoveofJMJ Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 I have reached the point where I am open to whatever vocation God has in store for me. Even the cloister! However, I am on break from active discernment for religious life. I can't go visit any communities anyway so it's not helping me worrying about it. I just want to live in the present and try thinking about marriage because I never really gave it much consideration. It honestly kinda scares me more then religious life for some reason. I guess I just hope and pray that if I am called to marriage, that I don't get to swept up in the world. Sounds stupid I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Paul Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 That's strange you say that because it's certainly mentioned in the Rule of St Benedict. http://ealingmonks.org.uk/welcome/enclosure/ From Chapter 66 (http://www.holyrule.com/index.htm ) CHAPTER LXVI : Of the Porter of the Monastery Let a wise old man be placed at the door of the monastery, one who knoweth how to take and give an answer, and whose mature age doth not permit him to stray about. The porter should have a cell near the door, that they who come may always find one present from whom they may obtain an answer. As soon as anyone knocketh or a poor person calleth, let him answer, "Thanks be to God," or invoke a blessing, and with the meekness of the fear of God let him return an answer speedily in the fervor of charity. If the porter hath need of assistance, let him have a younger brother. If it can be done, the monastery should be so situated that all the necessaries, such as water, the mill, the garden, are enclosed, and the various arts may be plied inside of the monastery, so that there may be no need for the monks to go about outside, because it is not good for their souls. But we desire that this Rule be read quite often in the community, that none of the brethren may excuse himself of ignorance. scratch what I said out .I forgot about this Chapter in the RB.Yes they did follow constitutional enclosure. I thought that because most OSB monks & sisters don't follow enclosure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 scratch what I said out .I forgot about this Chapter in the RB.Yes they did follow constitutional enclosure. I thought that because most OSB monks & sisters don't follow enclosure I am not an expert on the Benedictines by any means, having only discerned with two cloistered contemplative communities, but perhaps they have different rules for those who are involved in active apostolates. That would make a lot of sense, wouldn't it? I mean, those who do teaching or nursing home work etc,need to interact with the public a lot more. Even the cloistered Benedictines where I stayed would go outside the enclosure to do their work (chickens, cows, lambs, other farm work etc) - their main rule was that no one was allowed inside the enclosure without necessity of some kind (such as workmen or other helpers). But this can probably vary for each community depending on their type of enclosure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AveMariaPurissima Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 I have reached the point where I am open to whatever vocation God has in store for me. Even the cloister! However, I am on break from active discernment for religious life. I can't go visit any communities anyway so it's not helping me worrying about it. I just want to live in the present and try thinking about marriage because I never really gave it much consideration. It honestly kinda scares me more then religious life for some reason. I guess I just hope and pray that if I am called to marriage, that I don't get to swept up in the world. Sounds stupid I know. Sounds similar to me right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Credo in Deum Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 (edited) I have reached the point where I am open to whatever vocation God has in store for me. Even the cloister! However, I am on break from active discernment for religious life. I can't go visit any communities anyway so it's not helping me worrying about it. I just want to live in the present and try thinking about marriage because I never really gave it much consideration. It honestly kinda scares me more then religious life for some reason. I guess I just hope and pray that if I am called to marriage, that I don't get to swept up in the world. Sounds stupid I know. I does not sound stupid at all. I would just say pray for your future spouse, if God wills that you be married, so then when you find them, if you are called to be married, you will have a companion in helping you fight the world and reach God. I personally think the VS section tends to focus so much on religious vocations that we miss out on the married state. It would be nice to hear some married Phatmass members talk about their vocational journey. Some people tend to think those called to the religious are only the ones that never wanted to be married, and vice versa that those called to married state are only those who never wanted to be religious. I think it would be nice to hear a married Catholic's journey on how they pursued religious life but realized they were not called, but are now happily married and who now see that when they did not get accepted into religious life that the sky did not fall and thier happiness was not over. Edited March 29, 2015 by Credo in Deum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 I think it would be nice to hear a married Catholic's journey on how they pursued religious life but realized they were not called, but are now happily married and who now see that when they did not get accepted into religious life that the sky did not fall and thier happiness was not over. The problem with this is that at one time, dUSt specifically told us not to post about married life but religious vocations here in VS. He said that we could use the Small Humans forum for things to do with married life. Perhaps you could get clarification on this before everyone starts posting here about their marriages??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Credo in Deum Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 The problem with this is that at one time, dUSt specifically told us not to post about married life but religious vocations here in VS. He said that we could use the Small Humans forum for things to do with married life. Perhaps you could get clarification on this before everyone starts posting here about their marriages??? I'm not too worried about it since I doubt anyone from Phatmass will actually post about their marriage in VS. Plus I don't even think Phatmass has a lot of active married members, so even if they did decide to "invade" VS, I doubt very much that VS would end up becoming overrun with marriage vocational stories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 I'm not too worried about it since I doubt anyone from Phatmass will actually post about their marriage in VS. Plus I don't even think Phatmass has a lot of active married members, so even if they did decide to "invade" VS, I doubt very much that VS would end up becoming overrun with marriage vocational stories. Actually there are quite a few married people here, more female than male, and usually women who have either discerned RL or actually been in RL for a period of time hwo might have information or advice to offer. There are also parents of those in RL who post here. But those of us who have been here for a long time know that this place is about religious vocations and/or the priesthood, so the married ones will post about that in other sections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Credo in Deum Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Noted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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