current events / pick some

[AccountDeleted]

smh, fyi this topic has already been beaten to death, I was hoping for something towards the other links I posted, but it is what it is.

One thing I would pose for anyone, in this Indiana law, and that is,  why is this issue of religious freedom or beliefs an not wanting to serve those who are homosexual; being brought up in the year 2015 ?

Homosexuals have been around for a very long time, so has businesses ... more over does anyone ever take into consideration the amount of research that has to be done to actually find a business owner, who is first off, Catholic, and not just Catholic but a practicing one that holds firm to this idea that they must not provide their serves to people who are " living in sin "; and then second for a homosexual couple to then actually find said Catholic business owner.

Yet all of a sudden we are to believe this is some epidemic that must be addressed, which all of a sudden has better odds of happening than any of us being hit by lightening or winning the lotto.

This smells nothing different than shady people who find shadier lawyers, who literally go into business of any kind with a tape measure in their pocket, looking for handicap accessible issues in the smallest of measurement errors, and then taking that establishment, {usually a very small one that really can not afford to be tied up in a lawsuit}; to court suing that establishment for their " rights being violated " and demanding justice.

people with nothing better to do making a mountain out of a mole hill, while others seize the opportunity to get something past the publics nose.

 

​So why not bring up one of the other topics that you would like to discuss and post something about it - then we will see what responses we get?

I often need to read a few posts and opinions and digest what is being said before I feel like responding myself. I don't engage a lot with current events except to pray for things, as I know that once a person forms an opinion, it is very rare that they are going to change it (I have seen that on here over and over again) and I don't like to make an opinion based on too little information.

That doesn't mean I don't find debate interesting, because I do, but more for the logic and rationalization involved and how people think, rather than the actual topic. Some things I care passionately about but other things I am not sure about how I feel, so I hang back and try to learn something before I commit myself to a point of view.

I am still undecided on the Indiana law issue but the things posted here are helping me to come to some conclusions. It might be that I am never sure about it but then again, maybe someone will post something that actually makes sense and isn't just a lot of emotion and heat. 

 

[superblue]

Superblue, I don't think there is an epidemic, but there is a precedent for suing the hell out of businesses that don't bend to the will of the gay agenda/are discriminatory and anti-gay (whichever way you look at it). Just because it's not directly affecting millions of people doesn't mean those thousands or maybe even hundreds shouldn't have legal recourse to uphold their religious beliefs. As for making a mountain out of a molehill, well isn't suing a small bakery (did this even happen in real life I feel like the Christian Bakery thing has reached mythological status) when you likely have dozens of other options, overreacting?

And why in 2015 do you expect certain issues to be resolved? Humans will muck things up forever. It is not as though we evolve morally as a species in an upward direction. Also "homosexuals" have not been around forever. I think many qwerty theorists would even tell you that sexual orientation is a social construct maybe a few hundred years old at most.

​a few hundred years old at least starting from the Roman Empire mine as well be forever,  and affecting thousands or even hundreds ? Not even remotely close of reality,  and of course it isn't an epidemic but it is being portrayed as one. I can remember the cake mess being started first on C.A.F before it was even mentioned in the big news outlets... what ever that is to beans.   My point in bringing up why in 2015, is because none of this garbage was an issue back in the year 2000 when Obama graced us with his election win, and it wasn't even a problem back when the evil Bush regime took power.  So a very small fractional number of complainers of Catholics and Homosexuals who had nothing better to do created a problem. An the result is only one political party wins from this.

If the Pope ever made an official statement as to why Catholics should not provide a service to anyone based on Catholic beliefs, then I'll reconsider my position, but all I know is there is nothing the Catechist or anything by any Pope which ever stated that as a Catholic or as an American I must not provide a service to a homosexual. The topic is a very poor one to be agitated over.

 

 

And mean while in Haiti and in the Middle East Catholics / Christians are being slaughtered and persecuted, but system could really care less and Mr.hope and change and his party turn a blind eye and the other party is just as compliant.  An the only thing anyone really wants to talk about is ..... 

 

I know I should have stuck to one issue of interested Nunsense which for me really was the link regarding Haiti, I had no idea there was so much violence aimed at the Church there, specially when there is Catholic relief services ( I forget the official name ) that has been helping Haiti for a while now.

 

[AccountDeleted]

Superblue - we have had a bit of violence against the Church here in Melbourne too. Recently three churches with links to pedophile priests were set on fire. And what possible good could that do since the priest involved is dead? I understand the anger but I don't understand directing it at the building and possibly injuring innocent people as well. But then, like in Haiti, these things probably only make sense to the person or persons actually committing the offense. 

[veritasluxmea]

I remember once I was upset about how first-world news was being handled. People are upset about Christian bakers and a mythical wage gap while people are being persecuted around the world and a senator openly admits to lying, the Vatican justifies appointing a Bishop suspected of being involved win the worst kind of scandal, child abuse, and it barely makes a blip? At one point I was complaining to an adult in my life about it and said that "Rome was burning, and the liberals want to sit around and talk about gender" (quote from some guy.) 

They just looked at me and said, "Veritas, if Rome was burning, it'd be the last thing anyone would want to talk about." 

Changed my life. 

[AccountDeleted]

I remember once I was upset about how first-world news was being handled. People are upset about Christian bakers and a mythical wage gap while people are being persecuted around the world and a senator openly admits to lying, the Vatican justifies appointing a Bishop suspected of being involved win the worst kind of scandal, child abuse, and it barely makes a blip? At one point I was complaining to an adult in my life about it and said that "Rome was burning, and the liberals want to sit around and talk about gender" (quote from some guy.) 

They just looked at me and said, "Veritas, if Rome was burning, it'd be the last thing anyone would want to talk about." 

Changed my life. 

​I think sometimes people talk about things that they feel might be resolved rather than trying to discuss things that no one seems to be able to fix. I am not comfortable with your disparagement of the term 'liberals' as I don't believe that 'liberals' are any worse than 'conservatives' or others along this imaginary spectrum. But I do relate to the frustration of feeling that the big things get pushed aside for smaller, less tragic events. That's why I tend to focus on prayer - I search the news for things that really can't be helped (terrorist attacks, natural catastrophes, murder, arson, etc) and ask for prayers. With the smaller debates, I try to understand different points of view and then form my own opinion. I don't consider myself a liberal or a conservative - I am a human being, as are we all, and I am also a Christian. But putting on labels doesn't seem to solve problems, it only seems to make them worse IMO by creating division and hostility where we should be trying to encourage mutual respect, even if we disagree about things.

[Ice_nine]

​a few hundred years old at least starting from the Roman Empire mine as well be forever,  and affecting thousands or even hundreds ? Not even remotely close of reality,  and of course it isn't an epidemic but it is being portrayed as one. I can remember the cake mess being started first on C.A.F before it was even mentioned in the big news outlets... what ever that is to beans.   My point in bringing up why in 2015, is because none of this garbage was an issue back in the year 2000 when Obama graced us with his election win, and it wasn't even a problem back when the evil Bush regime took power.  So a very small fractional number of complainers of Catholics and Homosexuals who had nothing better to do created a problem. An the result is only one political party wins from this.

If the Pope ever made an official statement as to why Catholics should not provide a service to anyone based on Catholic beliefs, then I'll reconsider my position, but all I know is there is nothing the Catechist or anything by any Pope which ever stated that as a Catholic or as an American I must not provide a service to a homosexual. The topic is a very poor one to be agitated over.

 

 

And mean while in Haiti and in the Middle East Catholics / Christians are being slaughtered and persecuted, but system could really care less and Mr.hope and change and his party turn a blind eye and the other party is just as compliant.  An the only thing anyone really wants to talk about is ..... 

 

I know I should have stuck to one issue of interested Nunsense which for me really was the link regarding Haiti, I had no idea there was so much violence aimed at the Church there, specially when there is Catholic relief services ( I forget the official name ) that has been helping Haiti for a while now.

 

​There were no gay people in the Roman Empire. That's an anachronism. There were however men who had sex with men and younger men/boys. Probably women having sex with women too. People have been screwing all sorts of things for millennia. The concept of the homosexual began, probably around Freud's time. I'm ballparking it, but let's say circa 1800's. Someone posted an insightful article about it but I'm too lazy to find it :/ (Actually I went and found it. Aren't I special? http://www.firstthings.com/article/2014/03/against-heterosexuality)

 

I agree there are more pressing issues, but that doesn't mean this issue is not at all important. People are trying to oust religion from public discourse and are trying to limit it to the realm of personal choice where is becomes almost meaningless. I think this is merely a symptom of a wider epidemic of isolationism and secularism, but what do I know? What if every time someone came to me with a personal problem and I said "well millions of children are starving right now and about a billion people don't have access to clean water." That may be true, and starving/thirsting people is probably a bigger problem than your boss being a jerk to you or something, but that doesn't make your personal problems not worth discussing and hashing out, right?

 

[superblue]

​There were no gay people in the Roman Empire. That's an anachronism. There were however men who had sex with men and younger men/boys. Probably women having sex with women too. People have been screwing all sorts of things for millennia. The concept of the homosexual began, probably around Freud's time. I'm ballparking it, but let's say circa 1800's. Someone posted an insightful article about it but I'm too lazy to find it :/ (Actually I went and found it. Aren't I special? http://www.firstthings.com/article/2014/03/against-heterosexuality)

 

I agree there are more pressing issues, but that doesn't mean this issue is not at all important. People are trying to oust religion from public discourse and are trying to limit it to the realm of personal choice where is becomes almost meaningless. I think this is merely a symptom of a wider epidemic of isolationism and secularism, but what do I know? What if every time someone came to me with a personal problem and I said "well millions of children are starving right now and about a billion people don't have access to clean water." That may be true, and starving/thirsting people is probably a bigger problem than your boss being a jerk to you or something, but that doesn't make your personal problems not worth discussing and hashing out, right?

 

​not that it isn't important i agree, and i browsed that link ima have to read it tomorrow over coffee,  and what, because back in the Roman empire if two people of the same sex where not waving rainbow flags and staring in Tv shows about how to redecorate your home in 7 easy steps with out a big budget that means they are not homosexual.  Since when does two people of the same sex having intercourse not constitute being homosexual. or is one going to suggest one has to keep chosing to such acts over an over multiple times to be homosexual. i dunno maybe the article will explain it some tomorrow.

 

 

[Socrates]

I have to honestly say that I get torn with issues of individual liberties vs discrimination of a group. I grew up with restaurants that always had signs saying 'We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.' and 'No shoes, no shirt, no service.' so I just assumed the business owners could choose which customers they would serve or not serve.

But then when we get to issues like segregation in the South during the civil rights era, it became clear to me that certain types of discrimination were simply injustice dressed up as individual rights. 

If someone owns their own business, it does seem that they should be able to say no if they don't want to serve someone, but once that is allowed, then any group is fair game to discrimination. So then it seems that if someone wants to open a business, they should have an obligation to serve anyone who wants to use it.

I don't know the answer. I don't own a business so I can't identify with their feelings, but then again, I am not in a group that usually suffers from discrimination, so I can identify with their feelings either. I think, if I had to choose, I would have to say that personal choice of customers can't be allowed for businesses that serve the public because it opens the door to all kinds of abuse and discrimination. That might not be the popular viewpoint around here, I don't know, but it seems like the right one to me.

​Again, you're confusing discrimination against persons, with people choosing not to cater or otherwise support events they believe to be wrong and immoral.

For the State to force persons to support with their business events that contrary to their conscience is wrong and tyrannical.

Good article here:

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/416257/freedom-association-burned-stake-indiana-deroy-murdock