Some questions about spiritual direction - those who are ordained/consecrated/seriously discerning/candidates

[oremus1]

This thread is for those who are ordained/consecrated/seriously discerning/candidates

1. Priests are so busy, that many areas have 'lay spiritual directors' who have some sort of training or qualifications. However, what guarantee does one have that the info is kept confidential? with a priest, the seal of confessional and internal forum can be enforced. but against a layperson, it can't, can it?

Like, what canonical protections are there for a layperson with a lay spiritual director, to stop the lay director misusing his position?

2. how far would you travel for spiritual direction?

3. since SDs are so few and hard to come by, is it ok to pray about it, email a bunch of places, and just assume the first person is Gods will?

4. when people have a regular confessor, does the confessor know their identity? how is their confession anonymous? do they make an appointment? am pretty sure most priests are too busy for regular confessee's.

5. Do you feel guilty using up the priest's time for direction? he is busy and gets nothing out of it. does this bother you?

6. how do you find one?

7. how long should it last and how often?

8. what if you feel like you don't need direction?

9. Why is formal SD seen as more necessary for those people in my top categories than for a layperson or married person?

 

[superblue]

This thread is for those who are ordained/consecrated/seriously discerning/candidates

1. Priests are so busy, that many areas have 'lay spiritual directors' who have some sort of training or qualifications. However, what guarantee does one have that the info is kept confidential? with a priest, the seal of confessional and internal forum can be enforced. but against a layperson, it can't, can it? { privacy between regular joes is not a guarantee, but outside the confessional a priest is more than likely going to keep conversations of a private nature private, I have never met a gossipy priest )

Like, what canonical protections are there for a layperson with a lay spiritual director, to stop the lay director misusing his position? { I personally do not know if there is such a clause considering you are speaking of regular parishioners taking on a role which is basically private counseling but on a spiritual matter }

2. how far would you travel for spiritual direction? { if it is worth an hour ride, I would make the ride }

3. since SDs are so few and hard to come by, is it ok to pray about it, email a bunch of places, and just assume the first person is Gods will? { it is not grab bag, the first one  out of the gate is not necessarily the best person for you; praying for a good spiritual director is fine, emailing around is fine too }

4. when people have a regular confessor, does the confessor know their identity? how is their confession anonymous? do they make an appointment? am pretty sure most priests are too busy for regular confessee's. { appointments are made with plenty of time in advance for the most part, a regular priest one confesses too is good to have because it builds up trust, there is nothing wrong with a priest having personal knowledge of one who comes to reconciliation, some people who do prefer a completely anonymous confession might go to a different parish to a priest they have never met, and sometimes there are private screened kneelers behind the priest a person may use instead of sitting face to face / going to reconciliation is a sacrament though not really something that should be looked at as oh I am going to tell a stranger my secrets, a truer way of looking at it is, oh I am going to God to apologize for the wrongs I have committed. }

5. Do you feel guilty using up the priest's time for direction? he is busy and gets nothing out of it. does this bother you? { no, if the priest was too busy to begin with, he wouldn't of scheduled the time }

6. how do you find one? { this answer will vary, I chose a priest I was comfortable with an just had a casual conversation and brought up the question }

7. how long should it last and how often? { an hour }

8. what if you feel like you don't need direction? { then don't go , it isn't mandatory the meetings can stop at any time for any reason }

9. Why is formal SD seen as more necessary for those people in my top categories than for a layperson or married person? { it just shows that those who are discerning a religious life are taking steps to really discern if they are being called, it is probably more necessary for the individual than it really is a requirement by an order or diocese }

 

​hi Oremusl,

First, Spiritual direction, is not just for people who are contemplating a religious life...  anyone including those who are already Catholic might feel the need to find someone who can help them with matters of the faith and their personal relationship with the Church / Christ / God and how all of that plays in their daily life..   There are no contracts to sign, there is no time table on meeting up, and basically you need to find someone you are comfortable with.

 

Hope some of this helps, there will be more suggestions to follow/. 

[Sponsa-Christi]

This thread is for those who are ordained/consecrated/seriously discerning/candidates

1. Priests are so busy, that many areas have 'lay spiritual directors' who have some sort of training or qualifications. However, what guarantee does one have that the info is kept confidential? with a priest, the seal of confessional and internal forum can be enforced. but against a layperson, it can't, can it?

Like, what canonical protections are there for a layperson with a lay spiritual director, to stop the lay director misusing his position?

2. how far would you travel for spiritual direction?

3. since SDs are so few and hard to come by, is it ok to pray about it, email a bunch of places, and just assume the first person is Gods will?

4. when people have a regular confessor, does the confessor know their identity? how is their confession anonymous? do they make an appointment? am pretty sure most priests are too busy for regular confessee's.

5. Do you feel guilty using up the priest's time for direction? he is busy and gets nothing out of it. does this bother you?

6. how do you find one?

7. how long should it last and how often?

8. what if you feel like you don't need direction?

9. Why is formal SD seen as more necessary for those people in my top categories than for a layperson or married person?

 

​Ok, my thoughts on this...

1. I've always had priest spiritual directors (which is my personal preference). Technically, spiritual direction isn't the same thing as confession, so unless you actually have your SD conversation under the seal, a priest-SD could theoretically (with your permission, of course!) mention parts of your conversation to a third party. E.g., if he wanted to introduce you to someone he thought could help you with something, etc. However, even if SD isn't technically under the every priest I've ever talked to would treat an SD conversation in the same way. I imagine the same thing would go for a lay SD.

Canon law doesn't say much about spiritual direction per se, so there aren't any "rules" for SD confidentiality spelled out anywhere. However, SD is considered "internal forum," so in general spiritual directors can't be the same people who are your ecclesiastical superiors, or who will be making decisions about your life and future. For example, it's absolutely forbidden for a seminary SD to have any say in whether or not a seminarian under his care is allowed to be ordained. (Which is why I think it's a really, really bad idea for an SD to be the one totally in charge of an aspiring consecrated virgin's formation...but that's a topic for another post!)

2. How far one is willing to travel for SD is a matter of personal preference/circumstances, but speaking for myself personally, I would think about 90 min. of travelling time each way would be what I would realistically consider. 

3. I think you should be open to God's providence in how you meet your SD, but I don't think you should take "he's the first one to answer my email!" as some sort of infallible sign! Also, I would tend to be on the picky side about who my SD is. It's better to have no SD for a while than to have a bad SD, or even to have an objectively good SD who's a bad match for you. 

4. My regular confessors have always known my identity. Practically speaking, I don't know how you would schedule appointments if you wanted to be anonymous. (Unless you wanted to resort to really cloak-and-dagger stuff like using code names!  ) If you truly just wanted a regular confessor---as in, you wanted five minutes once a week/fortnight/month just to confess your sins, as opposed to having long spiritual conversations every time---I think most priests would probably agree to this. You never know until you ask!

5. No, I don't feel guilty about it! I do try to respect my SD's time, and I try to express my gratitude in an appropriate way (and I also pray for my SD). And priests were ordained to bring people closer to God, so I don't think most of them look at SD as something they "get nothing out of." 

6. Finding an SD can be tricky, but my suggestion would be to ask people you trust for personal recommendations. Or, if you know a holy priest (or even a holy Sister/CV/deacon/layperson) whom you think would be a good SD, just work up the nerve to ask them. After all, the worst thing they can do is say "no," and even then you'll be no worse off than you were before! Even if they can't take you on as a directee, they might have an idea of someone else to whom they could refer you. 

7. Meeting once a month for about an hour is normal for spiritual direction. But based on different factors, you and your SD might decide to meet more or less often. For example, you might meet once every two weeks when you're first getting to know each other.

8. If you're discerning a vocation to priesthood/consecrated life, you do need spiritual direction, full stop. (There are lots of reasons for this.) Still, while everyone needs some guidance in their spiritual life, I think for many laypeople this might take the form of normal guidance in confession, listening to homilies at Mass, talking with one's parish priest just as questions or major life issues arise, etc. Also, I think some religious in more cloistered communities often feel as though their Rule and community life provides them with sufficient direction. 

9. SD is seen as more of a necessity for priests and consecrated people because: 1. these people are often called upon to guide others or to represent the faith publicly, so there's an especially pressing need for them to "have their own house in order"; 2. unlike marriage, a celibate vocation is essentially going against human nature (in that you're striving to arise above the natural towards the supernatural), so it's an inherently more challenging spirituality and way of life, thus more guidance is required; 3. a celibate vocation is "special," in the sense that you're discerning whether or not God is giving you a special grace, and more guidance is required to discern this sort of thing, and later to persevere in living this way of life.

[oremus1]

​Ok, my thoughts on this...

1. I've always had priest spiritual directors (which is my personal preference). Technically, spiritual direction isn't the same thing as confession, so unless you actually have your SD conversation under the seal, a priest-SD could theoretically (with your permission, of course!) mention parts of your conversation to a third party. E.g., if he wanted to introduce you to someone he thought could help you with something, etc. However, even if SD isn't technically under the every priest I've ever talked to would treat an SD conversation in the same way. I imagine the same thing would go for a lay SD.

Canon law doesn't say much about spiritual direction per se, so there aren't any "rules" for SD confidentiality spelled out anywhere. However, SD is considered "internal forum," so in general spiritual directors can't be the same people who are your ecclesiastical superiors, or who will be making decisions about your life and future. For example, it's absolutely forbidden for a seminary SD to have any say in whether or not a seminarian under his care is allowed to be ordained. (Which is why I think it's a really, really bad idea for an SD to be the one totally in charge of an aspiring consecrated virgin's formation...but that's a topic for another post!)

2. How far one is willing to travel for SD is a matter of personal preference/circumstances, but speaking for myself personally, I would think about 90 min. of travelling time each way would be what I would realistically consider.

3. I think you should be open to God's providence in how you meet your SD, but I don't think you should take "he's the first one to answer my email!" as some sort of infallible sign! Also, I would tend to be on the picky side about who my SD is. It's better to have no SD for a while than to have a bad SD, or even to have an objectively good SD who's a bad match for you.

4. My regular confessors have always known my identity. Practically speaking, I don't know how you would schedule appointments if you wanted to be anonymous. (Unless you wanted to resort to really cloak-and-dagger stuff like using code names!  ) If you truly just wanted a regular confessor---as in, you wanted five minutes once a week/fortnight/month just to confess your sins, as opposed to having long spiritual conversations every time---I think most priests would probably agree to this. You never know until you ask!

5. No, I don't feel guilty about it! I do try to respect my SD's time, and I try to express my gratitude in an appropriate way (and I also pray for my SD). And priests were ordained to bring people closer to God, so I don't think most of them look at SD as something they "get nothing out of."

6. Finding an SD can be tricky, but my suggestion would be to ask people you trust for personal recommendations. Or, if you know a holy priest (or even a holy Sister/CV/deacon/layperson) whom you think would be a good SD, just work up the nerve to ask them. After all, the worst thing they can do is say "no," and even then you'll be no worse off than you were before! Even if they can't take you on as a directee, they might have an idea of someone else to whom they could refer you.

7. Meeting once a month for about an hour is normal for spiritual direction. But based on different factors, you and your SD might decide to meet more or less often. For example, you might meet once every two weeks when you're first getting to know each other.

8. If you're discerning a vocation to priesthood/consecrated life, you do need spiritual direction, full stop. (There are lots of reasons for this.) Still, while everyone needs some guidance in their spiritual life, I think for many laypeople this might take the form of normal guidance in confession, listening to homilies at Mass, talking with one's parish priest just as questions or major life issues arise, etc. Also, I think some religious in more cloistered communities often feel as though their Rule and community life provides them with sufficient direction.

9. SD is seen as more of a necessity for priests and consecrated people because: 1. these people are often called upon to guide others or to represent the faith publicly, so there's an especially pressing need for them to "have their own house in order"; 2. unlike marriage, a celibate vocation is essentially going against human nature (in that you're striving to arise above the natural towards the supernatural), so it's an inherently more challenging spirituality and way of life, thus more guidance is required; 3. a celibate vocation is "special," in the sense that you're discerning whether or not God is giving you a special grace, and more guidance is required to discern this sort of thing, and later to persevere in living this way of life.

​Many thanks Sponsa!!

I have a few questions

1. Why do you personally prefer priests? Is it because they have extra training? Or because their vocation is a bit like the CV? Why did you personally not choose a CV as an SD? Or a religious? Just wondering your opinion.

Also, I thought the internal forum (excluding confessions, which of course, are under the seal of confession) was strictly protected. Because, the priest is in a fiduciary position of one way disclosure of sensitive information in the forum of conscience when he is acting as a spiritual director. A person might make a manifestation of cosnceince to their SD. There must be some protections for directees against unwarranted disclosure of things from the internal forum? Are you saying there isn't?

 for example, I thought if the priest mentioned stuff from your SD to a third party without your permission, he would get into a load of trouble. As such, with a priest, such protections for directees can be enforced by the bishop. the priest has a loads of rights and entitlements which the bishop can remove. whereas with a lay SD, there is no such protection - since they have no special rights the bishop could take away.

But are you saying that a directee actually has NO canonical protections from unwarranted disclosure of information from the internal forum of spiritual direction? regardless of whether the director is a priest or a person

5. By appropriate gratitude, do you ever pay your SD? what do you mean? what do other people do? I feel guilty asking for SD and using up time of the busy priest. But I also am wary of "professional lay spiritual directors"  because I cannot really see how a married layperson can generally direct a vowed or consecrated person

[BarbTherese]

I used to pay my SD but he has asked me to refrain.  Now that money goes to the missionary society of which he is a member.  He did not ask me to do this. He is a priest religious.

[bardegaulois]

This thread is for those who are ordained/consecrated/seriously discerning/candidates

1. Priests are so busy, that many areas have 'lay spiritual directors' who have some sort of training or qualifications. However, what guarantee does one have that the info is kept confidential? with a priest, the seal of confessional and internal forum can be enforced. but against a layperson, it can't, can it?

Like, what canonical protections are there for a layperson with a lay spiritual director, to stop the lay director misusing his position?

2. how far would you travel for spiritual direction?

3. since SDs are so few and hard to come by, is it ok to pray about it, email a bunch of places, and just assume the first person is Gods will?

4. when people have a regular confessor, does the confessor know their identity? how is their confession anonymous? do they make an appointment? am pretty sure most priests are too busy for regular confessee's.

5. Do you feel guilty using up the priest's time for direction? he is busy and gets nothing out of it. does this bother you?

6. how do you find one?

7. how long should it last and how often?

8. what if you feel like you don't need direction?

9. Why is formal SD seen as more necessary for those people in my top categories than for a layperson or married person?

 

​1. Considering that I've often confessed to my SDs in the past, a non-cleric SD wouldn't seem right to me. You raise a very interesting issue, though, as to whether a layperson, subject to much less scrutiny and far fewer legal obligations than a cleric or a religious, can be held to any sort of canonical accountability regarding direction.

2. About an hour to an hour and a half.

3. I certainly would never be one to cold-call anyone advertising himself as a spiritual director. Indeed, I'd be more apt to eschew anyone advertising himself as so, particularly because I reside in an area in which there are so many New-Agey guru types, and a lot of that has crept into Catholics of a certain generation. No, I'm really not interested in your enneagram, thanks.

4. My regular confessor (not my SD, to whom I often make monthly general confessions) is a priest religious who hears confessions at a local shrine. I know when he'll be in the confessional, so I make it a point to try to see him fortnightly. I don't know his name, nor what he looks like, nor do I presume he knows me. I just wandered into his confessional once out of opportunity, was prompted through a very good confession by him, came back in a couple of weeks to find that it was the same priest, and have continued to do so since.

5. Spiritual direction is part of a priest's job, so I can say I scarcely feel guilty. I did offer him a donation for his time, but he refused. Nevertheless, I felt obliged somehow, so I gave him some Mass stipends after a relation died--so as both to give him something of a remuneration and to ensure that some Masses would be offered for my relation. That issue worked out very well, I dare say.

6. I've always known the priests who've directed me aforehand, and was just prompted to ask the question, usually because of my being impressed with their very reverent liturgical style and learned homiletics.

7. Monthly for about an hour is the standard, I believe. That's how I've always done so.

8. Feelings are a very poor guide to our spiritual behaviour. Are we only in a state of grace if we feel as though we are in a state of grace? In some sinful times, I've felt great, and in some gracious times, I've felt awful. Feelings are quite fickle indeed, and it is best to defer to customary practice and the words of authority on this one. This leads to the big one:

9. Sponsa Christi gets this right when she focuses on the matter of celibacy and public witness. Most married laypersons will hopefully have support within their own families and parish communities for their issues, with occasional recourse to pastoral counseling if they need it, but often nothing more might be needed than the occasional counsels of a confessor. Any celibate person, however, will of necessity be living a somewhat more rigorous spiritual life than a married person, and thus spiritual direction will be all the more valuable for them.

I hope this helps.

[Sponsa-Christi]

​Many thanks Sponsa!!
I have a few questions

1. Why do you personally prefer priests? Is it because they have extra training? Or because their vocation is a bit like the CV? Why did you personally not choose a CV as an SD? Or a religious? Just wondering your opinion.

Also, I thought the internal forum (excluding confessions, which of course, are under the seal of confession) was strictly protected. Because, the priest is in a fiduciary position of one way disclosure of sensitive information in the forum of conscience when he is acting as a spiritual director. A person might make a manifestation of cosnceince to their SD. There must be some protections for directees against unwarranted disclosure of things from the internal forum? Are you saying there isn't?

 for example, I thought if the priest mentioned stuff from your SD to a third party without your permission, he would get into a load of trouble. As such, with a priest, such protections for directees can be enforced by the bishop. the priest has a loads of rights and entitlements which the bishop can remove. whereas with a lay SD, there is no such protection - since they have no special rights the bishop could take away.

But are you saying that a directee actually has NO canonical protections from unwarranted disclosure of information from the internal forum of spiritual direction? regardless of whether the director is a priest or a person

5. By appropriate gratitude, do you ever pay your SD? what do you mean? what do other people do? I feel guilty asking for SD and using up time of the busy priest. But I also am wary of "professional lay spiritual directors"  because I cannot really see how a married layperson can generally direct a vowed or consecrated person

​1. First, preferring priests for SDs really is just my personal preference (and not anything that I think anyone else "should" prefer). Part of it is that I know priests are educated in theology. Also, to me it seems that diocesan priests live a way of life somewhat similar to CVs, so I find the insight of holy diocesan priests to be especially helpful. But ultimately, I just feel more comfortable "opening up" about my spiritual life with a priest---I can't quite explain exactly why, but I think part of it is knowing that a priest is an "alter Christus."

2. Technically, there are no specific canonical penalties attached to a breach of confidentiality in SD as there are for breaking the seal of the confessional. Part of this is because it can be difficult to determine exactly what constitutes "spiritual direction." (For example, is two friends talking about spiritual things considered "spiritual direction?" Or what if you talk to a priest about your prayer life in an informal way over a cup of tea? Or if you meet regularly with a nun for what is de facto SD, but you don't ever give it that official label?)

Most of the canon law around the protection of the internal forum has more to do with you not being compelled to make a manifestation of conscience, rather than guaranteeing your right to confidentiality once you've freely chosen to make a manifestation of conscience to your SD outside of the confessional. E.g., your ecclesiastical superior can't demand you manifest your conscience to him, nor could he demand that your SD reveal things to him. But it doesn't mean that a bad SD who reveals something he shouldn't can thereby be threatened with specific canonical penalties. 

But with all that being said, every SD (and potential SD) I've ever met has taken confidentiality extremely seriously! Most SDs won't even reveal that you are their directee unless you give them permission to do so. Confidentiality is also something that you would talk about in your first meeting with a potential new SD. If you really don't feel that you can trust a potential SD with confidentiality, that's a rather strong sign that you shouldn't be receiving spiritual direction from him or her!

3. No, I've never paid an SD---and I'm sort of appalled by the idea. To me, this seems to be veering too close to approaching simony. Also, I would worry that a paid SD would only tell me the things I wanted to hear, as opposed to the things I needed to hear. 

By "showing appropriate gratitude," I mean I verbally thank my SD, and I take his advice and direction seriously (even while I'm not bound by strict obedience to do so). I also make a point to remember his intentions in my prayers.  

Edited April 17, 2015 by Sponsa-Christi
noticed a typo

[oremus1]

​1. Considering that I've often confessed to my SDs in the past, a non-cleric SD wouldn't seem right to me. You raise a very interesting issue, though, as to whether a layperson, subject to much less scrutiny and far fewer legal obligations than a cleric or a religious, can be held to any sort of canonical accountability regarding direction.

.....

4. My regular confessor (not my SD, to whom I often make monthly general confessions) is a priest religious who hears confessions at a local shrine. I know when he'll be in the confessional, so I make it a point to try to see him fortnightly. I don't know his name, nor what he looks like, nor do I presume he knows me. I just wandered into his confessional once out of opportunity, was prompted through a very good confession by him, came back in a couple of weeks to find that it was the same priest, and have continued to do so since.

5. Spiritual direction is part of a priest's job, so I can say I scarcely feel guilty. I did offer him a donation for his time, but he refused. Nevertheless, I felt obliged somehow, so I gave him some Mass stipends after a relation died--so as both to give him something of a remuneration and to ensure that some Masses would be offered for my relation. That issue worked out very well, I dare say.

8. Feelings are a very poor guide to our spiritual behaviour. Are we only in a state of grace if we feel as though we are in a state of grace? In some sinful times, I've felt great, and in some gracious times, I've felt awful. Feelings are quite fickle indeed, and it is best to defer to customary practice and the words of authority on this one. This leads to the big one:

I hope this helps.

​1. Yes. I am thinking the directee might want to discuss their sins and growth in virtue. Seems a really bad idea to do that with a layperson. I agree with your points.

2. I have travelled an 8 hour round trip for SD for about 2-3 years. There are not many SD priests and I was wondering if it was normal

4. How does seeing the same priest for confession anonymously help you grow in virtue? Like, he does not know your soul because he does not know who you are or even that you are coming to see him regularly?

8. I read somewhere that when one cannot find an SD, the Holy Spirit will provide the direction they need, and that not all people need SD in all times in their life. But I guess that was for laypeople

Thanks very much

​2. Technically, there are no specific canonical penalties attached to a breach of confidentiality in SD as there are for breaking the seal of the confessional. Part of this is because it can be difficult to determine exactly what constitutes "spiritual direction." (For example, is two friends talking about spiritual things considered "spiritual direction?" Or what if you talk to a priest about your prayer life in an informal way over a cup of tea? Or if you meet regularly with a nun for what is de facto SD, but you don't ever give it that official label?)

Most of the canon law around the protection of the internal forum has more to do with you not being compelled to make a manifestation of conscience, rather than guaranteeing your right to confidentiality once you've freely chosen to make a manifestation of conscience to your SD outside of the confessional. E.g., your ecclesiastical superior can't demand you manifest your conscience to him, nor could he demand that your SD reveal things to him. But it doesn't mean that a bad SD who reveals something he shouldn't can thereby be threatened with specific canonical penalties.

But with all that being said, every SD (and potential SD) I've ever met has taken confidentiality extremely seriously! Most SDs won't even reveal that you are their directee unless you give them permission to do so. Confidentiality is also something that you would talk about in your first meeting with a potential new SD. If you really don't feel that you can trust a potential SD with confidentiality, that's a rather strong sign that you shouldn't be receiving spiritual direction from him or her!

3. No, I've never paid an SD---and I'm sort of appalled by the idea. To me, this seems to be veering too close to approaching simony. Also, I would worry that a paid SD would only tell me the things I wanted to hear, as opposed to the things I needed to hear.

By "showing appropriate gratitude," I mean I verbally thank my SD, and I take his advice and direction seriously (even while I'm not bound by strict obedience to do so). I also make a point to remember his intentions in my prayers. 

​2. Are you saying there are NO canonical protections for someone revealing their conscience to their spiritual director outside of the confession?

You said "Technically, there are no specific canonical penalties attached to a breach of confidentiality in SD " then you also said  "But it doesn't mean that a bad SD who reveals something he shouldn't can thereby be threatened with specific canonical penalties. " how can these both be right?

Also, seems wrong to me that legally, there is doctor-patient privilege, lawyer-client, therapist-patient, psychologist-patient, counsellor-client, banker-client confidentiality, all protected with sanctions but NO confidentiality between the spiritual director and directee.

By confidentiality I am not talking about "it would be wrong so generally they would not breach it" I am talking about enforceable rights of the person in the vulnerable position disclosing sensitive information.

Are you saying, no such rights exist?

That one has MORE rights to confidentiality if they were disclosing stuff to a secular counsellor or therapist, than to a priest or nun or other spiritual director? even considering that the info disclosed to a therapist is of considerably LESS sensitivity than the info disclosed to priest in spiritual direction, which would generally relate to the highly sensitive area of interior life and conscience?

Not to mention the fact that if there are indeed NO such protections, there is nothing to protect the directee from being blackmailed with that sensitive information, or pressured into taking a course of action they do not want to take.

Here is an example. Joe Bloggs is experiencing mystical ecstasies. He works as a high profile journalist. When he was a child, his father used to hit him. Sometimes he tells lies and struggles with the sins relating to anger.
Example 1: He confides all of this in a therapist about his experience. If the therapist discloses that information, he will get kicked out, lose his job and might end up being sued or jailed. Therefore Joe is protected
Example 2: He confides in spiritual direction to Mrs Anne Johnson who is a professional spiritual director. She threatens to tell people about his mystical experiences and his sins and his past, in order to ruin his high profile reputation, unless he agrees to a full year of spiritual direction at $100,000.  He has no protections.
Example 3: He confides in a nun or priest, outside of the confessional. The nun or priest threatens to tell people unless Joe agrees to mow the their lawn for the rest of the year, wash the priests car, and generally become a slave to their House. Aside from general ethical principles which a priest or nun might be obliged to which would prevent them from requesting these things, is it right that Joe has no protections over the info he has disclosed? Like, the priest or nun could just tell the press anonymously to ruin his repulation?
 

[bardegaulois]

4. How does seeing the same priest for confession anonymously help you grow in virtue? Like, he does not know your soul because he does not know who you are or even that you are coming to see him regularly?

Bear in mind, I generally confessed everything since our past session to my SD, which truly helped me grow in virtue. The local priest at the Shrine was nearby and convenient. This was especially important as the SD's and my schedules were subject to change, and we were prone to cancellations due to weather during the winter. The SD knew that I frequented a confessor, and we often discussed his counsels--which, granted, were general, but which the SD saw how he could apply them and relate them better to my specific circumstance.

[Sponsa-Christi]

​2. Are you saying there are NO canonical protections for someone revealing their conscience to their spiritual director outside of the confession?
You said "Technically, there are no specific canonical penalties attached to a breach of confidentiality in SD " then you also said  "But it doesn't mean that a bad SD who reveals something he shouldn't can thereby be threatened with specific canonical penalties. " how can these both be right?

​Sorry, I think my syntax was confusing here!

"Technically, there are no specific canonical penalties attached to a breach of confidentiality in SD" means that there isn't a canon that spells out a specific penalty for breaching confidentiality in SD per se (even though there are specific crimes in the Code which do have specific penalties attached).

"But it doesn't mean that a bad SD who reveals something he shouldn't can thereby be threatened with specific canonical penalties. " Might be better worded as: "A bad SD who inappropriately reveals something is not liable to specific canonical penalties as a punishment for that revelation per se" (i.e., because there are no specific penalties listed for a breach of confidentiality in SD) 

So these two sentences are actually saying the same thing.

[Sponsa-Christi]

Also, seems wrong to me that legally, there is doctor-patient privilege, lawyer-client, therapist-patient, psychologist-patient, counsellor-client, banker-client confidentiality, all protected with sanctions but NO confidentiality between the spiritual director and directee.

By confidentiality I am not talking about "it would be wrong so generally they would not breach it" I am talking about enforceable rights of the person in the vulnerable position disclosing sensitive information.

Are you saying, no such rights exist?

That one has MORE rights to confidentiality if they were disclosing stuff to a secular counsellor or therapist, than to a priest or nun or other spiritual director? even considering that the info disclosed to a therapist is of considerably LESS sensitivity than the info disclosed to priest in spiritual direction, which would generally relate to the highly sensitive area of interior life and conscience?

Not to mention the fact that if there are indeed NO such protections, there is nothing to protect the directee from being blackmailed with that sensitive information, or pressured into taking a course of action they do not want to take.

Here is an example. Joe Bloggs is experiencing mystical ecstasies. He works as a high profile journalist. When he was a child, his father used to hit him. Sometimes he tells lies and struggles with the sins relating to anger.
Example 1: He confides all of this in a therapist about his experience. If the therapist discloses that information, he will get kicked out, lose his job and might end up being sued or jailed. Therefore Joe is protected
Example 2: He confides in spiritual direction to Mrs Anne Johnson who is a professional spiritual director. She threatens to tell people about his mystical experiences and his sins and his past, in order to ruin his high profile reputation, unless he agrees to a full year of spiritual direction at $100,000.  He has no protections.
Example 3: He confides in a nun or priest, outside of the confessional. The nun or priest threatens to tell people unless Joe agrees to mow the their lawn for the rest of the year, wash the priests car, and generally become a slave to their House. Aside from general ethical principles which a priest or nun might be obliged to which would prevent them from requesting these things, is it right that Joe has no protections over the info he has disclosed? Like, the priest or nun could just tell the press anonymously to ruin his repulation?
 

​First of all, I was talking here about possible canonical protections and penalties---i.e., as they exist in canon law. Doctor-patient and lawyer-client confidentiality aren't matters of canon law, but rather the secular law of whatever country you're in. So in that sense, you can't really compare civil legal confidentiality protections to SD. 

However, if you were in an extreme situation where an SD was blackmailing you, I'm sure there would be state laws you could appeal to! Also, even if there aren't canonical penalties specific to something like this, I'm sure in practice that SD's ecclesiastical superior would probably find some way to discipline the offender. 

Still, I think you might be approaching the question of SD confidentiality the wrong way. An SD relationship is really based on trust. If you don't trust someone enough not to blackmail you, would you really trust them enough to take their spiritual advice to heart?

[MarysLittleFlower]

This thread is for those who are ordained/consecrated/seriously discerning/candidates

1. Priests are so busy, that many areas have 'lay spiritual directors' who have some sort of training or qualifications. However, what guarantee does one have that the info is kept confidential? with a priest, the seal of confessional and internal forum can be enforced. but against a layperson, it can't, can it?

Like, what canonical protections are there for a layperson with a lay spiritual director, to stop the lay director misusing his position?

2. how far would you travel for spiritual direction?

3. since SDs are so few and hard to come by, is it ok to pray about it, email a bunch of places, and just assume the first person is Gods will?

4. when people have a regular confessor, does the confessor know their identity? how is their confession anonymous? do they make an appointment? am pretty sure most priests are too busy for regular confessee's.

5. Do you feel guilty using up the priest's time for direction? he is busy and gets nothing out of it. does this bother you?

6. how do you find one?

7. how long should it last and how often?

8. what if you feel like you don't need direction?

9. Why is formal SD seen as more necessary for those people in my top categories than for a layperson or married person?

 

​Hi, I'm not consecrated in any sort of life and still discerning my vocation, so I don't know how much my answer is worth (probably little), but I have a spiritual director which is why I was interested in the topic I know it's very hard to find one...

1. I honestly don't know sorry.. I prefer a priest as a spiritual director and I've simply never examined the other options.

2. I think it's fine to have a spiritual director a little further away, - even if you sometimes have to write letters.. .I think it's most important that the spiritual director is a very good one. Spiritual direction doesn't have to be very often either - once a month or once every two months is okay, but it mostly depends that the director is capable and understands your spiritual needs.

3. maybe it can work that way, but I would personally maybe try out the first one and see if he's the right director for me, and then if not, try another one... I don't think it's good to "shop" for a spiritual director (like seeking one that agrees with the most lol) because that could be self willed and just seeking what is easiest. But sometimes you can tell if the spiritual director is the right one. Generally any holy priest can be a good spiritual director I think... at least my experience has been so (I've had 3 so far and switched because of moving, or the priest moving).

4. My SD is also my regular confessor. My parish has confession before every Mass so I just go to him whenever he's in the confessional and I need to confess. Yes he knows it's me right away.. it's ok that it's not anonymous. It doesn't have to be with a regular confessor, in fact the whole purpose of a regular confessor is that he gets to know what your difficulties are so he can guide you better it can also be humbling because it's like "it's me again with the same thing"...

5. I've felt this before but I realized it was just something I was making up in my mind and not the reality of how the priest actually thinks. This is their apostolate and what they do, they are there to help souls, and if they're busy they'd generally tell you they're busy. But it doesn't mean they just "don't want" to help. I think I've realized that my priest is way more selfless than is typical for people and maybe we expect a certain level of selfishness that is not there... I think it's best not to assume this so we're not assuming a bad thing about someone I've often wondered about this but my SDs have always made time to see me when I needed help. The only times I had to leave the meeting was only because the priest had to go somewhere or there was another person in line, which totally makes sense cause I'm not the only person they're directing.

6. I guess that's the most difficult question of all... I prayed for an SD and then went to Confession to a very good priest, this was at an event and I figured out he's actually a priest at my parish (I was new to my parish and hadn't met him yet at that time). So God just provided one for me. Later this priest got transferred to another city and a new priest came to our parish. He seems like a very good holy priest and a good confessor so I knew right away that I'd like to ask him to direct me. He's quite busy though so I wasn't sure. I needed help with something at a certain point and made an appointment with him, and later he became my confessor, and later on I started meeting with him for spiritual direction. I think the way it typically happens in a parish is that the priest is your confessor first - because then he gets to know you and your needs. If there's no priest at your parish that you could ask and if they're all really busy, (I mean if they tell you this.. don't assume they are :)) - I would maybe email some place like a religious community or a good parish in another area? (in the second case, I'd maybe visit different parishes and see if there's a priest who is very orthodox in his homilies/confessions.. it depends what you are looking for, I was looking for a very traditional priest, but I attend an FSSP parish so this was easy in my case).

7. Most people meet for spiritual direction for around 40 minutes to an hour every month or two months... however it varies. At one point I needed a lot of help and the priest met me more often. Sometimes if they're really busy it might be for something like half an hour. 40 minutes seems to be the norm at my parish. Many people have this same priest as their spiritual director.

8. In that case I would read about the benefits of spiritual direction from spiritual books I find it really helps to have a director to grow in humility because you are following his decisions which is God's signified will for you... so it's easier to find God's Will, instead of just relying on your own will. Of course God can and does manifest His Will without direction too but having a director is good practice to reject our own self will.

9. I think a director could be very useful for any state of life... but often those who are discerning have a director maybe because they are trying to discern a choice that is difficult to figure out. I mean with marriage, if you don't feel drawn to religious life then there's already a natural desire for marriage so it's more of a matter of finding the right person (and in this case too, having a priest for direction would be good to help the courtship/marriage be holy). But in the case of religious life or priesthood, it helps particularly to have a director because he has more experience with something that is more purely supernatural and with the spiritual reality behind it... he can also help you to live in such a way to prepare you for your vocation. For example, he might suggest following a rule of life. There are many benefits to following a rule regardless of your state of life, and one of them is to learn obedience and submitting your will.. and it should be done with spiritual direction. This can help you to grow towards your vocation and help it not be lost through distractions etc.

God bless you

[MarysLittleFlower]

Concerning paying the SD... at my parish I don't think there's any expectation with this I mean I've never heard of anyone paying the priest for spiritual direction. However I do pray for him. I think priests would perhaps appreciate that more

"Here is an example. Joe Bloggs is experiencing mystical ecstasies. He works as a high profile journalist. When he was a child, his father used to hit him. Sometimes he tells lies and struggles with the sins relating to anger.
Example 1: He confides all of this in a therapist about his experience. If the therapist discloses that information, he will get kicked out, lose his job and might end up being sued or jailed. Therefore Joe is protected
Example 2: He confides in spiritual direction to Mrs Anne Johnson who is a professional spiritual director. She threatens to tell people about his mystical experiences and his sins and his past, in order to ruin his high profile reputation, unless he agrees to a full year of spiritual direction at $100,000.  He has no protections.
Example 3: He confides in a nun or priest, outside of the confessional. The nun or priest threatens to tell people unless Joe agrees to mow the their lawn for the rest of the year, wash the priests car, and generally become a slave to their House. Aside from general ethical principles which a priest or nun might be obliged to which would prevent them from requesting these things, is it right that Joe has no protections over the info he has disclosed? Like, the priest or nun could just tell the press anonymously to ruin his repulation?"

I guess my thoughts on this are similar to Sponsa's...If you are seeing a good holy priest for direction, (for example for the 3rd case), this sort of thing should never even remotely come up. A really orthodox pious priest would simply not be likely to do such a thing. and it's unlikely that you'd choose a priest for direction who doesn't seem good and prayerful (for example one who already has a bad reputation for things). Spiritual direction is based on a lot of trust... you tell the person things that you'd probably never tell another soul on earth. For example Joe Bloggs would probably not tell any of his friends or even relatives that he has mystical ecstasies - at least, he really shouldn't. Because a relationship with a priest already implies great trust (for example, saying your sins in confession) - this is one of the reasons I've always felt more comfortable with having a priest as an SD. Just based on experience.. you get to talk about things that you'd probably never tell anyone - so it's very unlikely that you'd choose an SD that you somehow distrust from the start if there's a serious reason to not trust him or her, then they're probably not be the right person to be your director either. (even if the situations described above never happen, there's already a problem with trustworthiness in that case). If a priest is good and orthodox, prayerful and a good confessor, there's no reason at all to even wonder if he's trustworthy or not - he likely is, and has the training for it too.

[MarysLittleFlower]

"I think I've realized that my priest is way more selfless than is typical for people and maybe we expect a certain level of selfishness that is not there"

I sort of worded this wrong because it's like I said that most people are selfish... and now it's too late to edit. lol. Sorry about that I meant more that often people describe our culture as being selfish and it's part of concupiscence etc, - so sometimes it gets assumed about people, but I've found priests tend to be very generous and the more prayerful they are, the more generous and patient they seem to be. (which makes sense from a spiritual perspective).

[oremus1]

 

I guess my thoughts on this are similar to Sponsa's...If you are seeing a good holy priest for direction, (for example for the 3rd case), this sort of thing should never even remotely come up. A really orthodox pious priest would simply not be likely to do such a thing. and it's unlikely that you'd choose a priest for direction who doesn't seem good and prayerful (for example one who already has a bad reputation for things). Spiritual direction is based on a lot of trust... you tell the person things that you'd probably never tell another soul on earth. For example Joe Bloggs would probably not tell any of his friends or even relatives that he has mystical ecstasies - at least, he really shouldn't. Because a relationship with a priest already implies great trust (for example, saying your sins in confession) - this is one of the reasons I've always felt more comfortable with having a priest as an SD. Just based on experience.. you get to talk about things that you'd probably never tell anyone - so it's very unlikely that you'd choose an SD that you somehow distrust from the start if there's a serious reason to not trust him or her, then they're probably not be the right person to be your director either. (even if the situations described above never happen, there's already a problem with trustworthiness in that case). If a priest is good and orthodox, prayerful and a good confessor, there's no reason at all to even wonder if he's trustworthy or not - he likely is, and has the training for it too.

​All priests seem good and holy and trustworthy at first. it is only when something bad happens that you realise one is not.

Because of the gravity of the sensitivity of the internal forum I am shocked by sponsa saying that it s not protected at all outside of confession. she may be right. but I am still shocked.

 

Edited April 18, 2015 by oremus1
i like typing too much