Guest Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 (edited) Who ever implied that I think salvation has *anything* to do with works? Not me, I guarantee it. The problem here is your attitude and your insistence in taking everything as a personal attack. Was never talking about you. Was talking about self righteous Catholics who are inflated with pride because they go to Mass all the time and have all the works that WILL get them into Heaven. No doubt about that. The problem is when this pride leads to a condescending attitude towards those who don't have all the works. It's one thing to reach out to these people with love and say do these things because Christ told us too. They will get you to Heaven. It's another thing to be a self righteous pharisee and assume everyone who isn't walking it out as well as you is going to hell. I've encountered many Catholics at least on the internet who have this repulsive attitude. They're vultures. I guarantee you the non Catholics who have a simple faith and walk in love are entering the Kingdom way before these people. Edited June 1, 2015 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Few. The gist was that it is few. Expound on the Homily a little if you don't mind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Secondly zero people are making you even defend this idea, I was with my argument that a whole bunch of people will get to go to Purgatory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Haha No duplicity is not what I'm implying. This is a forum. People have internet personas. Although some posters probably do mirror their actual real life selves and opinions they would state in public very much. And their tone and the way they would say it. Perhaps your phatmass self is a 100 % mirror of you in real life. I'm guessing probaly so. That's a good thing you are knowledgeable of the faith. What I mean by switch gears is you are not all fire n brimstone 24 7. I also see post from you about God's mercy. I've encountered posters who honestly believe only the best Catholics will go to Heaven. They have no respect for Christians who are not Catholic let alone the Pagans. I think you're smart guy so I really don't need to explain all this. And what are your thoughts about Voris's attacks on Father Barron? My priest specifically mentioned Fr. Barron as someone who is not really in accordance with the traditional teachings of the Church. My own impression of him is that he is not exactly a universalist per se, but I think he is sort of flirting with the idea, and I find that to be dangerous. I think he would do better to reevaluate his position. I would love to post a transcript or recording of the homily, but doing so might get my priest in trouble. I will try to listen to it and transcribe important bits. However my home Internet is not connected until tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Voris makes good points that people will be in hell. I agree with him. How many ? Only God knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 (edited) Michael Voris Again Smears an Innocent Catholic Comments by: Mark Shea When we think of menaces to the Church or obvious dissenters, who should we think of? Pelosi? Sebelius? Islamic murderers of Christians? Apostate theologians who say Jesus was eaten by wild dogs? Crony capitalists destroying families with unjust wages? Of course not! No the huge threat we face are the best evangelists of our generation. So Michael Voris sets about the task of ginning up a mob against none other than Fr. Robert Barron as a heretic for his views on hell, just as he recently set about ginning up a mob about those equally dangerous people Karl Keating, Jimmy Akin, Al Kresta their ilk–again providing evidence that Reactionaries are, at bottom, most frightened of evangelists. Here is what Fr. Barron actually has to say. You will note that what he has to say is basically identical to what Pope Benedict has to say inSpe Salvi. It is, as it is with Benedict, a speculation, not a forecast or a doctrine. Voris, to his credit cannot bring himself to declare Benedict “wrong” but does not hesitate to bring up Barron on heresy charges for his audience. The problem is, Barron is guilty of no heresy, has said nothing “wrong” and is perfectly within the pale of orthodox speculation. No. Really: Now those, such as Ralph Martin who speculate that few will be saved are also (obviously) also within the pale of orthodoxy and share their opinion with not a few Fathers and theologians. But at the end of the day, that’s all you have: two schools of opinion–both of which are allowed by the Church. But Voris is certain that somehow Benedict’s and Barron’s speculation is not *really* allowed by the Church and so set about portraying his opinion, not merely as “different but within the pale of orthodoxy” but as “wrong”: The problem is, as we discuss here at some length, Barron is not “wrong” in his speculations just as Benedict is not wrong. They (and numerous other Catholics) are guilty of no dissent against Church teaching whatsoever. Yet Voris attacks all who share Barron’s opinion as guilty of precisely this. I would critique and refine Barron’s presentation of this matter in some regards, to be sure – and I am personally a champion of the theory that we can hope that all men may be saved. But it is one alternative of two equally allowable theological positions in an open question, and neither side can claim a slam-dunk victory in this matter because it is simply not definitely settled at this point. And that’s what makes Voris’s presentation here (par for the course for him) malicious, unfair, ham-fisted, offensive, insulting, and stupid. The exasperating thing about Voris’ consistent method is that he targets, not heretics or enemies of the Faith, but innocent people, disobedient to no precept of Holy Church, and dissenting from no doctrine of Holy Church, and then maliciously smears them with the suggestion (and in this case the flat declaration), that they are believing, living (and in Barron’s case) teaching error. Whether it’s Barron (as here), or Keating, Akin, Kresta et al (for the “sin” of making a living), or people who receive communion in the hand (who are somehow associated with Priscillianist heresy) or people who happen to like “Amazing Grace” (Protestantism!), Voris’ method is not to defend the Church from heresy, but to accuse innocents of heresy and sic his audience on them. It’s sinful and it should stop. And before somebody says something stupid like “Why aren’t you taking this to Michael Voris directly?”, remember two things. 1. I did, when he launched exactly this malicious attack at the Argument of the Month Club and I told him to his face that Fr. Robert Barron is not the enemy and this sort of fratricidal nonsense is purely destructive. 2. Lemme ask you, Gentle Reader, if you are wringing you hands over a public response to a public attack on an innocent man, have you gone to Michael Voris and asked him if he took this smear to Fr. Barron before recklessly launching this video today or whether he took his smears of Keating, Akin, Kresta et al to them to verify that there was, in fact, anything wrong with their personal incomes before broadcasting them to the universe with the suggestion that they are money-grubbing whores and gutless cowards in the pay of the Church of Nice? This stuff is poison and needs to stop. Edited June 1, 2015 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catlick Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Mark Shea, dude please... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Mark Shea really has no credibility left at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Mark Shea really has no credibility left at this point. Why is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 The hope that hell is empty of human souls is the hope that Christ and the Church are wrong and that a sort of neo-universalism is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 I actually don't hope hell is empty. There's to many evil people to believe it could be empty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Why is that? He is a broken record. He screeches about traditionalists and 'reactionaries', and steadfastly refuses to recognize that we are dealing with a very serious crisis in the Church which is enabling a total collapse of the faith, like we have seen in Ireland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 He is a broken record. He screeches about traditionalists and 'reactionaries', and steadfastly refuses to recognize that we are dealing with a very serious crisis in the Church which is enabling a total collapse of the faith, like we have seen in Ireland. So if it gets bad enough then what? Do you break off or ? Honestly curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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