Strength and Honor

[veritasluxmea]

 

No good, because as a young boy I always had a crush on Raven

 

 

 

I have no idea what we're talking about, but I'm guessing it has something to do with that picture.

I do agree that veritas' avatar is aesthetically pleasing. The lines of the outer circle overlap nicely with those of the inner circle. And the purple is a nice shade.

I also feel flattered to be invited to join some kind of cartoon gang. I like cartoons. 

HOW can you NOT KNOW about TEEN TITANS YOU ARE MISSING OUT ON ONE OF THE BEST PARTS OF LIFE

 

 

[Gabriela]

HOW can you NOT KNOW about TEEN TITANS YOU ARE MISSING OUT ON ONE OF THE BEST PARTS OF LIFE

Yes, I know. I'm in grad school. It smells of elderberries one's life away.

Pray for me. 

[Ice_nine]

It wasn't asking for commentary on how we liked or disliked his wording.

lol. This is the internet.

 

 

[veritasluxmea]

Yes, I know. I'm in grad school. It smells of elderberries one's life away.

Pray for me. 

I'm really sorry, I will pray for you. 

[Ash Wednesday]

I posted it for men interested in going to the conference, which I thought rather clear. It had more to do with the conference than anything else. Everyone just assumed it was about the opinions in the video, which it wasn't. If you're a guy and you agree with what he said and want to go to the conference, this is your chance. That was the purpose behind the thread. It wasn't asking for commentary on how we liked or disliked his wording.

Pretty safe to say that any post that involves gender discussion and especially when it involves Voris on a Catholic board is going to generate response that you might not be asking for, especially given the "wussification" commentary you tacked onto it. 

People are free to post whatever they like (within reason for a clean phorum), and likewise, people should also feel free to have critical thinking and discussion without it being perceived as drama. 

[CrossCuT]

 

Please see beatitude's post about what liberal feminism is.

You are probably a liberal feminist without even knowing it. That's because it's pop feminism.

I asked the question about transgenderism because it tends to foment intellectual crisis in garden variety liberal feminists. Burn the forest down and something more authentic may grow in its place.  

I am more of a difference feminist, which has its own problems. But you can probably tell I don't think much of liberal feminism. 

 

Sounds like you have it all figured out 

To be honest I've never heard a solid libfem argument on this topic - they almost always seem to boil down to "I don't know", and while I respect that for the honesty and the humility, and I definitely agree that it can be harmful to start judging other people's personal experiences in life, it's not exactly a robust basis for a critique of gender.

Almost, but the idea in the "I dont know" camp is that you withhold judgement and categorization because you realize that we dont understand the whole picture yet. If you believe you current view of sexuality is complete and you know 100% that there is nothing new to learn, then go ahead and judge away. You can form your little categories of people based on the clothes they wear and start sorting people. 

Im not sure what you mean by viewing transgenderism critically...Id rather think I view it pretty non critically in that I have little opinion on it at all. Id say your camp of conservatives view things extremely critically because you reject peoples notions of individuality if they do not coincide with an outdated, impervious view of the world.

[Ash Wednesday]

If I don't get some sleep soon, I am going to set something on fire. Preferably not a person.

[beatitude]

Sounds like you have it all figured out 

Almost, but the idea in the "I dont know" camp is that you withhold judgement and categorization because you realize that we dont understand the whole picture yet. If you believe you current view of sexuality is complete and you know 100% that there is nothing new to learn, then go ahead and judge away. You can form your little categories of people based on the clothes they wear and start sorting people. 

Im not sure what you mean by viewing transgenderism critically...Id rather think I view it pretty non critically in that I have little opinion on it at all. Id say your camp of conservatives view things extremely critically because you reject peoples notions of individuality if they do not coincide with an outdated, impervious view of the world.

I'm not a conservative. I am a radical feminist (albeit an unusual one, as I'm Catholic), and I wrote 'critique of gender', not 'critique of transgenderism'. I know people who are transgender, I respect that I can't understand their experiences, and I don't want to make harsh judgments on them as people for trying to make themselves feel more at home in their bodies. But I do have a critical view of the concept of gender itself, viewing it as primarily a tool of control, and the thing that frustrates me about most liberal feminists is that they will also say that gender is narrow, constricting, harmful - but then when someone turns round and says he has always known he was a girl because he liked to play with dolls as a child and he was emotionally sensitive, they accept this reasoning unquestioningly. They accept it even though it's harmful to women, reinforcing as it does the idea that female = pink and fluffy. I don't think I'm rejecting people's individuality when I state that boys can enjoy playing with dolls and it's OK for them to show emotion - if anything, I'm encouraging it. But is it fostering individuality to suggest that these things are inherently 'girly', and that a boy who plays will dolls may really be a girl? Isn't this just a way of categorising and sorting people on the same restrictive gender lines?

Radical feminists and others influenced by second-wave thinking argue that gender is something people are socialised into based on their physical sex. For example, when I was fifteen years old my school nurse made a disgusted comment about my hairy legs, shaming me into shaving for them for the first time in my life. She did that because I was female, and her expectation was that I should want to remove my hair because, in her reply to my objection, "it's a girly thing to do". People who suggest that gender is something you can simply opt out of are ignoring this whole socialisation process. If I stood up and declared myself to be a man, this wouldn't prevent people from making all kinds of assumptions about me (emotional, bad at reading maps, should shave legs...) based on my female body. Supporting the idea that gender is innate instead of externally imposed does not help women who are trying to break free of these assumptions.

Edited July 21, 2015 by beatitude

[Nihil Obstat]

Radical feminists and others influenced by second-wave thinking argue that gender is something people are socialised into based on their physical sex. For example, when I was fifteen years old my school nurse made a disgusted comment about my hairy legs, shaming me into shaving for them for the first time in my life. She did that because I was female, and her expectation was that I should want to remove my hair because, in her reply to my objection, "it's a girly thing to do". People who suggest that gender is something you can simply opt out of are ignoring this whole socialisation process. If I stood up and declared myself to be a man, this wouldn't prevent people from making all kinds of assumptions about me (emotional, bad at reading maps, should shave legs...) based on my female body. Supporting the idea that gender is innate instead of externally imposed does not help women who are trying to break free of these assumptions.

Sounds rather along the lines of Judith Butler's theories on gender roles being essentially performative.

[Basilisa Marie]

I think Nihil Obstat is more of a My Little Pony avatar.

He's a total Rarity.

[CrossCuT]

I'm not a conservative. I am a radical feminist (albeit an unusual one, as I'm Catholic), and I wrote 'critique of gender', not 'critique of transgenderism'. I know people who are transgender, I respect that I can't understand their experiences, and I don't want to make harsh judgments on them as people for trying to make themselves feel more at home in their bodies. But I do have a critical view of the concept of gender itself, viewing it as primarily a tool of control, and the thing that frustrates me about most liberal feminists is that they will also say that gender is narrow, constricting, harmful - but then when someone turns round and says he has always known he was a girl because he liked to play with dolls as a child and he was emotionally sensitive, they accept this reasoning unquestioningly. They accept it even though it's harmful to women, reinforcing as it does the idea that female = pink and fluffy. I don't think I'm rejecting people's individuality when I state that boys can enjoy playing with dolls and it's OK for them to show emotion - if anything, I'm encouraging it. But is it fostering individuality to suggest that these things are inherently 'girly', and that a boy who plays will dolls may really be a girl? Isn't this just a way of categorising and sorting people on the same restrictive gender lines?

Radical feminists and others influenced by second-wave thinking argue that gender is something people are socialised into based on their physical sex. For example, when I was fifteen years old my school nurse made a disgusted comment about my hairy legs, shaming me into shaving for them for the first time in my life. She did that because I was female, and her expectation was that I should want to remove my hair because, in her reply to my objection, "it's a girly thing to do". People who suggest that gender is something you can simply opt out of are ignoring this whole socialisation process. If I stood up and declared myself to be a man, this wouldn't prevent people from making all kinds of assumptions about me (emotional, bad at reading maps, should shave legs...) based on my female body. Supporting the idea that gender is innate instead of externally imposed does not help women who are trying to break free of these assumptions.

I really have no grasp of this liberal vs radical feminism, but everything you just said seems find to me. I have little interest in fighting with women who have the same goals as me. 

[Credo in Deum]

Can't we all just fem along?

[Norseman82]

i comment because this vendetta against men is deteimental to all those who arent lumberjack bobs.

Because somebody has to post it: 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-zguu8pqUg

[veritasluxmea]

OH my gosh does anyone else remember the lumbersexual joke going around a few years ago? Google it... you can thank me later. 

[PhuturePriest]

lol. This is the internet.

 

 

No, this is Phatmass. Never on any other website have I ever encountered such psychoanalyzation of every single detail, nor people feeling such liberty to just change a topic because they didn't like the way someone said something. These are things completely special to Phatmass, in my experience. On Facebook, if people disagree with something they heard, they'll say something like "Well, I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. Did you mean x, or was that my misunderstanding?" (if they're reasonable people, anyway. Others are just trolling.) Here, you can expect that someone or many will just begin by openly disagreeing with you without first making sure what you said is what you meant or without second thought as to whether it would be appropriate to turn the topic into a debate in the first place. I put this in Open Mic, not the Debate Table. There are two distinct boards for a reason.