Just war and today's wars

[MarysLittleFlower]

This might be a controversial thread... Do I understand just war is when a country needs to defend itself and all other ways have not worked out? What does the Church say about wars in our time? Are we justified in believing that most if not all wars today are not just?

I don't want to start a political debate but today I think there's tons of misinformation in the media, and many wars are just for power. I just saw a documentary on Hiroshima and it made me upset seeing the peoples suffering. I don't want to offend any Americans here but it doesn't seem just to me to kill innocent civilians like that and I don't see it as just. I.also dont see it as just what the Soviet Union did against its people like Christians. Im very anti Communist.

Defending from Hitlers armies I think was more necessary. Many wars today seem power based. 

Just to clarify I'm not a liberal at all. I'm not Marxist. But I'm not a neoconservative American either. I'm probably some sort of traditionalist who favours Catholic monarchy. But I just wanted to ask if we are justified in not thinking most / all wars today are necessary? I think just war is - an army is attacking you and ALL efforts to make peace failed. And even then its a sad thing that's an effect of the fall.

I'm grateful to people who died to protect the country in wars. I celebrate Remembrance Day. I respect soldiers i see around my city and im grateful they risk their lives to protect us. But I get upset with the governments making wars for political power and money reasons when there could be peace. like I said - controversial thread. I'm NOT saying there were no just wars. I don't consider everything that was done to be necessary though. (Like inflicting unnecessary pain on civilians).

And I do believe in honouring veterans and current people serving in the army btw. So if anyone here has relatives in the army past or present, I do respect them. My issue is not with legitimate just wars.. And even in unjust wars my only disagreement is with the governments themselves and people in power. Not people who give their lives for their country. 

Edited August 6, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[MarysLittleFlower]

Just a lot of wars make me really sad. Especially seeing all the suffering that could be averted if people just sought more peace. Its the people in power who are responsible but I believe we should pray for peace. 

[beatitude]

There are two prominent streams of thought in the Church: just war theory and Christian pacifism. Both have had strong advocates over the centuries and the dividing line between the two is not always as stark as it seems. Back when he was Cardinal Ratzinger, Pope Benedict queried whether the concept of a just war could co-exist with nuclear weapons, and pointed out that the majority of casualties in modern warfare are civilian. Both these things go against just war theory, leading Cardinal Ratzinger to say that Catholic teaching on war "must be updated on the basis of new methods of destruction and of new dangers" that never existed when the question of war was being debated in the early Church. So yes, it certainly is possible to say that most wars today are fundamentally unjust.

I used to be in the just war theory camp but became a pacifist when I started working in humanitarian aid and I met people who had suffered through war. Listening to them, and gathering data on what they had experienced, I began to feel that talking about a just war is like talking about a rosy hypothetical la-la land that can never really exist, because even wars that look just in principle are not just in the way they are carried out. In addition to setting certain preconditions for war, just war theory also requires that wars be waged in a certain way - and I have yet to come across a single war that didn't also involve war crimes. Hitler's regime was murderous and needed to be stopped, but despite that, what the Allied bombers did to Dresden was unconscionable - the end doesn't justify the means in Catholic thought. This makes war a very thorny issue in Christian thinking and you're not obliged to support it.

Edited August 6, 2015 by beatitude

[MarysLittleFlower]

I'm sorry if this thread is too controversial or upsetting to people. I'm questioning now if I should have made it. I'm just having a bad day and then I saw a documentary showing people suffering after a nuclear bomb and that made me upset / angry. I began thinking as a Catholic what do I think of this? It has nothing to do with what I think about America or Japan and politics. I would oppose my country for doing anything unjust either because though I respect my country, we are all people made by God. I care about the innocent civilians in the "enemy country" too even if I disagree with their politics, but I want there to be peace and conversion to Christ. 

[Nihil Obstat]

Posting here to remind myself to read this in depth later.

[MarysLittleFlower]

There are two prominent streams of thought in the Church: just war theory and Christian pacifism. Both have had strong advocates over the centuries and the dividing line between the two is not always as stark as it seems. Back when he was Cardinal Ratzinger, Pope Benedict queried whether the concept of a just war could co-exist with nuclear weapons, and pointed out that the majority of casualties in modern warfare are civilian. Both these things go against just war theory, leading Cardinal Ratzinger to say that Catholic teaching on war "must be updated on the basis of new methods of destruction and of new dangers" that never existed when the question of war was being debated in the early Church. So yes, it certainly is possible to say that most wars today are fundamentally unjust.

I used to be in the just war theory camp but became a pacifist when I started working in humanitarian aid and I met people who had suffered through war. Listening to them, and gathering data on what they had experienced, I began to feel that talking about a just war is like talking about a rosy hypothetical la-la land that can never really exist, because even wars that look just in principle are not just in the way they are carried out. In addition to setting certain preconditions for war, just war theory also requires that wars be waged in a certain way - and I have yet to come across a single war that didn't also involve war crimes. Hitler's regime was murderous and needed to be stopped, but despite that, what the Allied bombers did to Dresden was unconscionable - the end doesn't justify the means in Catholic thought. This makes war a very thorny issue in Christian thinking and you're not obliged to support it.

i see! I'm never sure what is doctrine and what isn't .. Like just war vs pacifism. I don't like war for sure and I think most wars are either not just in principle or not carried out justly as you said. I believe even if its just self defense its still a regrettable thing that war happened and I believe in working for peace as much as possible. So I'm still determining where I stand but I believe as Christians we should not be pro war... Even if its a just war its still sad and regrettable. I saw a movie about St Joan of Arc. She actually wanted peace but the other side wouldn't want it. In the movie she cries after the battle seeing all the wounded and killed. 

[beatitude]

What happened to Hiroshima and Nagasaki was definitely not just. 80,000 people died when the bomb hit Hiroshima, and they had not committed any crime - they were just unfortunate enough to live in that city. The death toll did not end there. So many more people died because of their injuries or through radiation sickness. In the end the death toll was nearly 170,000 people, and for years after the war babies were being born with deformities and health problems caused by nuclear radiation. This is plainly against Catholic teaching on the sanctity of life. It goes against just war theory because the target was an entire city, not enemy soldiers - almost all the dead in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were civilian. So no matter whether you believe in a just war or not, what happened in Hiroshima and Nagasaki is not OK according to the Church, and you are right to be horrified and disgusted by it.

[MarysLittleFlower]

OK I agree! I think an argument could be made against many modern weapons on those grounds because many were made to be used against a population rather than an army. Its no longer two armies charging at one another with swords. Now the population is attacked which makes it worse. I know in the past civilians were attacked with swords too and that's also sad. Today there are weapons to kill larger numbers of civilians at once or to be used as chemical or biological warfare. If there's ever a WW3 it would be scary just to live on this planet. 

Edited August 6, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[Nihil Obstat]

 

What happened to Hiroshima and Nagasaki was definitely not just. 80,000 people died when the bomb hit Hiroshima, and they had not committed any crime - they were just unfortunate enough to live in that city. The death toll did not end there. So many more people died because of their injuries or through radiation sickness. In the end the death toll was nearly 170,000 people, and for years after the war babies were being born with deformities and health problems caused by nuclear radiation. This is plainly against Catholic teaching on the sanctity of life. It goes against just war theory because the target was an entire city, not enemy soldiers - almost all the dead in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were civilian. So no matter whether you believe in a just war or not, what happened in Hiroshima and Nagasaki is not OK according to the Church, and you are right to be horrified and disgusted by it.

Well said. It is important to me that we point out the horrific evil of those bombs whenever the subject comes up. Totally unjustifiable as a Catholic, and probably two of the most evil discrete actions ever committed.

[Credo in Deum]

Ven. Fulton J Sheen said dropping those bombs was when we changed our morality.

"See how much the world has changed? Now, what made it change? I think maybe we can pinpoint a date: 8:15 in the morning, the sixth of August, 1945. Can any of you recall what happened on that day? ... it was the dropping of the bomb on Hiroshima in Japan. When we flew an American plane over this Japanese city and dropped the atomic bomb on it we blotted out boundaries. There was no longer a boundary between the civilian and the military, between the helper and the helped, between the wounded and the nurse and the doctor, between the living and the dead - for even the living who escaped the bomb were already half-dead. So we broke down boundaries and limits and from that time on the world has said 'We want no one limiting me'. So that, you people have heard the song, you've sung it yourselves: 'I gotta be me, I gotta be free'. We want no restraint, no boundaries, no limits. Have to do what I want to do."--Ven. Fulton J. Sheen

Edited August 7, 2015 by Credo in Deum

[Maggyie]

What makes it worse is that these targets were chosen partially for the shock value. Another option was to blow up a bomb off shore or in a remote part of Japan as a demonstration.

But it was decided they needed to kill masses of civilians in order to achieve the desired goal. The other options weren't horrifying enough. Chilling. 

[Nihil Obstat]

Anyone care to watch and respond? It just sapped the energy right out of me even considering it.

 

Edited August 7, 2015 by Nihil Obstat

[MarysLittleFlower]

Haven't watched the video yet but I'm glad that others agree that the bombs were bad. Didn't know that about shock value too bad this is how we are using advancement in science as a world. Now countries are developing more and more destructive weapons in a race with each other. I know people say they wouldn't be used because of the risk involved but I wonder if such common sense would always be used. I just don't trust the people running the 'world' anymore. I'm not anti government I just think governments need a lot of humility and conversion. 

Edited August 7, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[Credo in Deum]

Anyone care to watch and respond? It just sapped the energy right out of me even considering it.

 

Fr. makes good points but in the end it's the same argument he's making and that is, "the ends justify the means."  We Catholics do not believe this.  Now was the bomb a sound military strategy? Yes.  Was it a moral one? No.  While some, heck we can say most, Japanaese citizens were against US invasion and would have fought until the end, the fact remains that not every Japanese citizen fell under this mode of thinking.  It would be delusional to think the entire nation held the same opinion of their government, Emperor, and the U.S.  Yet the a-bomb didn't distinguish between the supporter and the enemy.  It treated ALL Japanese citizens as enemies. Furthermore we can only speculate and assume that not dropping the bomb would have resulted in more civilian and military casualties.  But even if it did would that make dropping the bomb a moral choice?  No.  Our Lord said "Be afraid of those who kill the soul, not the body." Had we continued fighting in an ethical fashion, regardless of how many more would have died, they would have died in a way which was truly honorable. 

But let's ask ourselves today if Fr.'s thinking is correct.  We could nuke ISIS right now. Would that be the best moral option for us to take? What if other countries supported our decision and the data supported the hypothesis that it would save more lives in the long run? Would we stil be justified in nuking them knowing innocent civilians would also die? Hopefully anyone with a moral compass would agree it would not be the right decision to take such actions regardless of if "all" other options have failed.  We are morally obligated to continue fighting the good fight and to give our lives for this good fight instead of fighting a bad fight and securing temporary happiness in exchange for eternal ruin.  

Edited August 7, 2015 by Credo in Deum

[Nihil Obstat]

Fr. makes good points but in the end it's the same argument he's making and that is, "the ends justify the means."  We Catholics do not believe this.  Now was the bomb a sound military strategy? Yes.  Was it a moral one? No.  While some, heck we can say most, Japanaese citizens were against US invasion and would have fought until the end, the fact remains that not every Japanese citizen fell under this mode of thinking.  It would be delusional to think the entire nation held the same opinion of their government, Emperor, and the U.S.  Yet the a-bomb didn't distinguish between the supporter and the enemy.  It treated ALL Japanese citizens as enemies. Furthermore we can only speculate and assume that not dropping the bomb would have resulted in more civilian and military casualties.  But even if it did would that make dropping the bomb a moral choice?  No.  Our Lord said "Be afraid of those who kill the soul, not the body." Had we continued fighting in an ethical fashion, regardless of how many more would have died, they would have died in a way which was truly honorable. 

But let's ask ourselves today if Fr.'s thinking is correct.  We could nuke ISIS right now. Would that be the best moral option for us to take? What if other countries supported our decision and the data supported the hypothesis that it would save more lives in the long run? Would we stil be justified in nuking them knowing innocent civilians would also die? Hopefully anyone with a moral compass would agree it would not be the right decision to take such actions regardless of if "all" other options have failed.  We are morally obligated to continue fighting the good fight and to give our lives for this good fight instead of fighting a bad fight and securing temporary happiness in exchange for eternal ruin.  

You da real mvp.