St Therese and roses

[AccountDeleted]

I find most of St Therese's writings far too sugary-sweet. Story of a Soul practically induced diabetes in me when I read it, it was that sickly. I realise that this was the writing style of nineteenth-century France (and that one of her blood sisters actually edited some of her work to make it even more flowery) but it's still hard to get past. So it was refreshing to discover the book St Therese: The Last Conversations. These are conversations that were jotted down by her Carmelite sisters during her final months. Although these excerpts are often fragmentary, that book came as a breath of cool fresh air to me, and it allowed me to see St Therese as she was in her own speech and daily life. There is a big difference between the spoken Therese and the written Therese, and I really love that book.

That was a good book, you are right. I don't remember which one it was that had the letters back and forth between the sisters, but I loved the bit where Therese and Celine are saying that they are going to teach Leonie how to pluck her mustache. They were going to get together (I can't remember if Leonie was visiting them or they visiting her) and do it all together for each other. Therese said something along the lines of just because they were nuns didn't mean they had to have mustaches.  This kind of blew my mind because it was just so 'human' and definitely female. Now that is a side of her that would make me like her but so many people focus on this sugary-sweet saintliness instead and that turns me off. I much prefer saints who are human - that tells me that anyone can be a saint. The ones who are portrayed as perfect beyond belief leave me cold because it just makes them inhuman and beyond the rest of us. But then we all need our heroes to be something different I suppose.

[MarysLittleFlower]

I used to think I was no good at praying novenas, because I always forget to pray the formal prayers in the middle of them. But as others have said, it's not the number of prayers that's important, it's the symbolism - the apostles and Mary retreated to the upper room and had nine days of prayer before the Holy Spirit descended among them. They needed to pray because of all the upheaval and terror and hope and joy that had transfigured their lives during the Passion, which is why Catholics tend to make a novena when we are facing a particularly difficult or demanding time. It signifies our own desire to enter that upper room along with Mary and the apostles, to let the Holy Spirit come to us. Invoking that memory of the upper room is a form of prayer in itself. As Pentecost is regarded as the birthday of the church, that upper room gathering is the first image we have of the Church at prayer, which is why I like praying novenas in company with others - they remind me that I am "a link in a chain, a bond of connection between persons" as Cardinal Newman put it, and reinforce my sense of belonging in the Church. This is true even when I forget to pray the formal prayers associated with a novena. Often I just pray in my own words, or remember the stories and sayings of whichever saint the novena is directed to - it's not the exact words that are important, but the intention and the meaning.

i like the connection to the Upper Room!

Lol I personally like her writing style though I like some other styles too her ideas though are quite serious, amidst the more flowery writing style. Also though I can relate more to the penitent Saints I enjoy reading about those who never did a mortal sin cause it helps me get my values in order. 

[AccountDeleted]

i like the connection to the Upper Room!

Lol I personally like her writing style though I like some other styles too her ideas though are quite serious, amidst the more flowery writing style. Also though I can relate more to the penitent Saints I enjoy reading about those who never did a mortal sin cause it helps me get my values in order. 

Isn't that funny? I prefer the saints who were human because it gives me hope that anyonecan be a saint. Those who never commit a sin or who seem 'too perfect' always give me the irrits. I love St Joseph just because he seems so human whereas the Blessed Mother was created without sin, so that's a little hard for me to relate to. I love her, don't get me wrong, but I identify with the 'real' human saints a little better. Peter and Paul squabbling gives me hope that we who argue aren't completely lost! LOL

[Nihil Obstat]

Isn't that funny? I prefer the saints who were human because it gives me hope that anyonecan be a saint. Those who never commit a sin or who seem 'too perfect' always give me the irrits. I love St Joseph just because he seems so human whereas the Blessed Mother was created without sin, so that's a little hard for me to relate to. I love her, don't get me wrong, but I identify with the 'real' human saints a little better. Peter and Paul squabbling gives me hope that we who argue aren't completely lost! LOL

St. Joseph did not sin though. He was not without original sin like Mary, but the Church's tradition has always been that he never personally committed a sin.

[MarysLittleFlower]

I guess the penitent ones give me hope and the others humble me but I have Saints who - I hope it's OK to say, but I love them as my friends and family - and they lived intense lives of holiness almost from childhood. Like St Gemma and Blessed Dina Belanger, St Therese and St Philomena. I asked St Padre Pio to be my spiritual father. But St Mary Magdalene I love as one I can relate to and want to be like. 

St. Joseph did not sin though. He was not without original sin like Mary, but the Church's tradition has always been that he never personally committed a sin.

not venial either? (But I'm not arguing at all I also love St Joseph) Just wanted to clarify!

Edited August 8, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[AccountDeleted]

St. Joseph did not sin though. He was not without original sin like Mary, but the Church's tradition has always been that he never personally committed a sin.

No, but he did question Mary's pregnancy at first and wanted to divorce her quietly. He had to be reassured by an angel that everything was ok. That's human to me. I mean, heck, I'm hardly a great sinner myself - in fact I was a perfect  student at school, never did drugs or had sex, was Mommy's little angel etc etc. And I wasn't even raised Catholic! I just liked being the 'good girl'. So I guess I haven't ever really committed a mortal sin either (I was 25 when I was baptised and even if I had been a 'bad girl', which I wasn't, all my sins would have been cleansed at that point). 

So I'm not saying that I identify with great sinners like Augustine (although I do think his story is great), but I identify with real human beings, who doubt and question and need a little help from God to trust - more so than the ones who are claimed to have never committed even the tiniest sin and who always appeared to do everything perfectly and always trusted God etc etc. Let's just say that I like my saints 'down to earth'. That's me. I know lots of people like the ideal saints so they can emulate them and that's great too. If we weren't all different, what a boring old world this might be.  

[MarysLittleFlower]

I did read something... One of the struggles of St Joseph was that he felt unworthy to be Our Lady's husband and guardian. Its not like he doubted her virtue, though he suffered due to not knowing the explanation and then feeling unworthy. Just what I remember

Edited August 8, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower

[Nihil Obstat]

No, but he did question Mary's pregnancy at first and wanted to divorce her quietly. He had to be reassured by an angel that everything was ok. That's human to me. I mean, heck, I'm hardly a great sinner myself - in fact I was a perfect  student at school, never did drugs or had sex, was Mommy's little angel etc etc. And I wasn't even raised Catholic! I just liked being the 'good girl'. So I guess I haven't ever really committed a mortal sin either (I was 25 when I was baptised and even if I had been a 'bad girl', which I wasn't, all my sins would have been cleansed at that point). 

I did read something... One of the struggles of St Joseph was that he felt unworthy to be Our Lady's husband and guardian. Its not like he doubted her virtue, though he suffered due to not knowing the explanation and then feeling unworthy. Just what I remember

Yes, MLF has it right. St. Joseph did not doubt Mary, whose holiness was clear to all, nor did he doubt God's plan.

[AccountDeleted]

Yes, MLF has it right. St. Joseph did not doubt Mary, whose holiness was clear to all, nor did he doubt God's plan.

I never said he doubted Mary or God's plan. I said he doubted, and he did, or he wouldn't have wanted to divorce her - that isn't a sign of trust in anyone's book. And I love that he had doubts - it is what makes him human to me.

[Nihil Obstat]

I never said he doubted Mary or God's plan. I said he doubted, and he did, or he wouldn't have wanted to divorce her - that isn't a sign of trust in anyone's book. And I love that he had doubts - it is what makes him human to me.

I have been taught that he intended to divorce her because of his unworthiness to be the foster father of Our Lord. He trusted perfectly, both in Mary and in God.

[AccountDeleted]

I have been taught that he intended to divorce her because of his unworthiness to be the foster father of Our Lord. He trusted perfectly, both in Mary and in God.

Well, that's certainly an interesting perspective but not necessarily one that is taught universally by the Church, or the only point of view within church theology. But once again, no matter what I post, you are going to want to shoot in down in flames. My point was simply that I prefer those saints who 'appear' to be very human, rather than like plaster saints. So read into that what you will but I am comfortable in my orthodoxy too.  

[MarysLittleFlower]

My main source for what I think about St Joseph is from a TAN book called Life and Glories of St Joseph. just to share. 

[BarbTherese]

 Peter and Paul squabbling gives me hope that we who argue aren't completely lost! LOL

I sure hope not!

[Spem in alium]

My main source for what I think about St Joseph is from a TAN book called Life and Glories of St Joseph. just to share. 

This is a very interesting book, yes, though not my favourite. I really love Andrew Doze's book, St Joseph: the shadow of the Father. 

As I'm doing my doctorate on St Joseph, I've done a lot of reading on him and from my understanding many academics seem to be divided on whether Joseph ever committed a sin. I certainly don't believe he ever committed a mortal sin.

As for the issue re. the mystery of the Incarnation, for what it's worth, it is my view that Joseph had such deep respect for Mary, and such faith in God, that he felt unworthy to assume he had a place in the mystery, especially when he hadn't been instructed what to do. However, I really do think he is such a great example of humanity, also. Even though he demonstrates great trust in God (acting immediately on the angel's messages, travelling by night, etc.), his humanness is still shown through references to his anxiety and fear. These emotions, and his sense of unworthiness too, show real humility and humanity. 

My favourite saintly example of humanity is St Peter. He teaches me a lot. Regarding St Therese, I have read A Story of a Soul. Her picture tends to crop up when I go on retreats (generally I'll find a picture of her in the room I'm staying; there was a photo of her in my room when I entered the convent, and when I travelled to Rome recently the first thing I was greeted with when I entered my room was a large painting of the Little Flower). There are some areas of my life she's certainly had a hand in, though I don't hold a strong devotion to her. 

[AveMariaPurissima]

Some books about St. Thérèse and her spirituality that I highly recommend:

I Believe in Love, by Fr. Jean C. J. d Elbée.  My SD told me to read this book -- and I cannot overstate how much it has helped me!

The Way of Trust and Love, by Fr. Jacques Philippe

Everything is Grace: The Life and Way of Therese of Lisieux, by Joseph F. Schmidt, FSC.  I'm currently reading this one, and it makes Thérèse seem so much more approachable and relatable and like a real person -- not the flat, overly sweet, clichéd, why-aren't-you-more-like-your-older-sister kind of figure she comes across as sometimes. I'm finding out that she and I have more in common than I perhaps realized previously.