What´s the Catholic Church's position the Franco regime?

[Kia ora]

Or as the Spanish call it, la dictadura (the dictatorship). Many of my friends are Spanish, and they loathe him and everything to do with him. They all condemn the Church for not only its complicity, but its integral role in the nacionalcatolicismo 'national Catholicism' that was the ideology he imposed. From what they say, the Church has basically lost all its moral authority among the young people of Spain for backing Franco. I haven´t met a single Spanish person under the age of 30 who goes to church...

 

Edited August 23, 2015 by Kia ora

[Maggyie]

People forget the circumstances. The alternative to Franco was the Red Terror. They were burning churches and convents, burying priests alive, raping nuns, there's even a famous photo of a murder squad "executing" a statue of the Sacred Heart. Between the vicious killer that wants to annihilate you and the viscious killer that will let you live... I know which side I would pick. 

[Kia ora]

I´m talking about the dictatorship, not the Civil War. The Civil War was terrible, atrocities on both sides and really not something you want to touch with a ten foot pole when talking to Spaniards, although I feel they´re a lot more freer to talk about it outside Spain with foreigners. But the dictatorship itself lasted for decades. We're talking about when Franco won, and so did the Church that backed him. I really do wonder what kind of apologetics Catholics have to defend his dictatorship, the reprisals, the lack of freedom of assembly, press etc. 

To be fair, most of my friends are young, or women and know from their parents what National Catholicism would have meant for them as women under the regime, or from places like the Basque Country or Cataluña where their cultures were rather brutally persecuted. 

I'm glad you know what side you would have picked, but that argument doesn't have any weight with the Spanish youth, so if the Church wants to make any headway among a lost demographic, they shouldn't try to say 'we did horrible stuff, but the other side was worse' . From what my friends say, there are almost no really religious Spanish young people. I'll be working in Spain soon, so I can see for myself whether that is true.

 

Edited August 23, 2015 by Kia ora

[NadaTeTurbe]

I am a descendant of republican fighters and other people who lived during the Franco regime. I can still see the scars made by the loving Franco soldiers during the war on my greatuncle and my greataunt (and they were kids). I have nothing but hate for Franco and Franco-lovers (often, people who have nothing to do with Spain, but they feel like rebels for loving Franco). I am also a catalan. Not very independantist (Okay... a little), but us, catalan, were persecuted during the Franco regime, only for speaking our languages. 

Also, the regime of Franco executed the priest and sisters that will not obey him. He had a special jail for them, near Zamora.  Please keep in mind also that the regime choose the bishop until 1967, not the Vatican. A lot of bishop and priest opposed Franco, specially on the subject of regional languages, because Franco only wanted castellano. 

Also, I think a lot of people don't go to church because church is more about folklore (old tradition, latin, procession), than a true act of faith, and, yes, because of franquism. It is a shame for the church of Spain. 

(it's the anthem of Catalunya. It was forbidden under Franco, because such a strong man was threatened by a little song) 

Also, today, a lot of french are fascinated by Franco, and support him, like they support Pétain. All facist are the same, at the end. 

[Kia ora]

Okay I got some latest data from this year:

http://datos.cis.es/pdf/Es3057sd_A.pdf

Pregunta 50a ¿Con qué frecuencia asiste Ud. a misa u otros oficios religiosos, sin contar las ocasiones relacionadas con ceremonias de tipo social, por ejemplo, bodas, comuniones o funerales? 

Question 50a: How often do you attend mass or other religious services, not counting the occasions that are related to ceremonies of the social kind, like weddings, communions or funerals?

Results:

74.4% of people aged 18-24, 78.8% of those aged 25-34 almost never go to religious services.

9.9% and 6.9% respectively say they go a few times a year. The other numbers are there as well.

Also, the regime of Franco executed the priest and sisters that will not obey him. He had a special jail for them, near Zamora.  Please keep in mind also that the regime choose the bishop until 1967, not the Vatican. A lot of bishop and priest opposed Franco, specially on the subject of regional languages, because Franco only wanted castellano. 

 

Yeah I'm sorry for my black-white view there. I know there are lots of religious people who were and opposed to Franco. I think the worst thing about it is that Franco hijacked Catholicism for his own purpose and tarnished its name. It is a perversion of what Catholicism is meant to be. 

Edited August 23, 2015 by Kia ora

[NadaTeTurbe]

Can you try to google the numbers for the country around Spain (Portugal, France) ? Because I'm sure it's the same... I think I remember that 4% of french catholic goes to mass once a month, against 40% of american. (the only moment I wish my country was more american !). Europe is a very atheist continent, and while the history of Spain is a part of the problems, it's not the sole factors. I think, for the exemple, that the church of Spain need to focus on the basics of faith, the Bigs Questions (death, life, faith, etc...), instead of old traditions that are meaningless for a lot of young. 

Also, Pie XII condemned the republican, but he did not liked Franco at all, and it tooks time for the regime of Franco to be recognized by the Vatican. 
We have a little the same history in France, when Pétain took powers during WWII. The Church of France collaborated with Pétain, while a lot of anonymous (or not), bishop, priest, and sisters, were part of the resistance and saved jewish life. 

[Kia ora]

A French friend on mine who came here on exchange found it absolutely bizarre how in my university in Australia, we had religious student groups who would advertise for their groups, like the Evangelical Union or the Jewish students or the Muslims or the Catholics or the Orthodox. They even set up stalls to explain to students what they´re about, but he said that this would never happen in France, because religion is not something you bring out into the public. Australia is secular, but a different kind of secular from French laïsme, which I personally find deplorable. The fact that Muslim students can´t wear hijab really shocks me. You can see Muslim kids wear hijab in high school everyday here in Australia.

Oops sorry, can´t spell I mean laïcisme. 

 

[NadaTeTurbe]

Well, first, France is the fourth atheist country in the world. It's not that people don't bring out religion on the public spaces, it's that they don't have religion.  

I have been in Canada, who seems to have the same kind of secular than Australia, and I am super happy that we don't let 5 years old wear hijab in class. If you want to be religious, then go to a religious school. You don't wear a Che Guevara T-shirt, you don't wear a hijab in school, because school is neutral, and it's a place to learn. Just to learn. (also, I think it's more easier to say that when muslims make 2% of your population (Australia), than 8%, like in France). 

If we allow the hijab, then we have to allow the palestinian flag, the israeli flag (with all the conflicts...), the Che Guevara T-shirt, etc... the "don't show your religion or political ideas in school" is a good rule for me. 

I agree that sometimes we think too much about religion in France, like when they want to forbid religious signs in university, or when they wanted to cancel a test of the bac (end of high school exams), in a school, because it was a catholic school and they forget to remove the crucifix from the walls, and they thought the students were "influenced" by the crucifix on the walls, but most of the time, it works just fine. In my high school, girls take off their hijab, and I don't remember one conflict about it. 

[Kia ora]

Secular isn´t neutral! Secular is a choice as well, and telling everyone that they have to take off their religious attire is just as much of an ideology as making everyone wear it like in Saudi Arabia! 

5 year olds don´t wear hijabs here, but I see many teenagers wearing it. We have an attitude that is much more multiculturalist than France, we don´t promote assimilation anymore overtly like we did under the White Australia Policy (when the immigration of non-whites was restricted by racist laws, and Anglo-Saxon culture was the model that everyone had to aspire to). That is, we don´t think that to be Australian, you have to dress one way, look one way, worship one way etc. Assimilation in fact is even a bad word here. 

We have Sikhs and Muslims, Christians and Hindus who wear what they want to wear. People who think that there would be conflict because of it, well I haven´t seen anything here, whereas I do remember protests by some Muslims and Sikhs in France because their religious rights were getting infringed upon. In fact I think some were expelled because they refused to take their hijabs or turbans off. This would never happen in Australia, ever. 

Edited August 23, 2015 by Kia ora

[NadaTeTurbe]

Yes, secularism is neutrality. 

Also, if you think that there is assimilation in France... I invite you here, because no, there's not. Young and adults are very proud of their origine. Arab is taught in many school, so people from Maghreb can study their culture at school. Just, go here when Algeria plays football, and you will see if there's assimilation... What I see, in anglo-saxon country who promotes multiculturalism, it's culture living adjacent to each other, not with each other. There's a china part of the city, then an indian, etc... While here, cultures lives WITH each other. They mixe. I like it better. 

French don't think that to be french you have to dress one way, look one way, or worship one way (even if, it's true, protestant, catholic, jewish and muslimse are not seen as "real french). In fact, we are all angry against the media anglo-saxon who speak about our country like if it is a white country living in Paris. However, what is true, it's that we're proud of our regional cultures (because it is the only one that matter. France = Paris, then you have the regions), and we don't hide it, and we're not sorry about it. 

There's different way of seeing the world in different country. Contrary to what the medias told us every day, I don't believe that the anglo-saxon models of multiculturalism is the best, but don't worry, every day we heard about how the UK or the US are better than us with migrants. There's not one model who work for every country. One exemple of thing that shock me in Australia/UK/US/Canada : you use the word "race", and you ask people their ""race"". Here, we don't use the word race since the War and Hitler, and ethnic statistics are strictly forbidden (you can't ask people their ""race"" during a poll) and unpopular. I could write a rant about how much in France we're better than Australia because we don't believe in human race anymore and we don't do ethnic statistics, but I don't, because it's two different countries, and it doesn't work the same. We don't handle laïcité and hijab the same way than Australia, because we are not Australia. 

[puellapaschalis]

Secularism is certainly not neutral. It is aggressive and poisonous.

[Kia ora]

Well if Francoism has taught us anything, so is national Catholicism, a Catholicism that turns from a love of God into an ideology imposed upon the people.

[NadaTeTurbe]

May I ask where you're going in Spain ? The issue of Franco changes a lot depending on the region/CC.AA. 

[Kia ora]

I was trying to go to Barcelona, where some of my friends are from and I have other friends who are from Mallorca, but unfortunately my work meant that I'm going to live in Madrid. Which isn't so bad, I just wanted to see Siurana (j'adore l'escalade).

[NadaTeTurbe]

How many time are you staying ? I heard that now, there's a lot of cheap bus to do Madrid-Barcelona. I prefer Barcelona to Madrid, but in summer, I just can't stand the drunk tourist. My favorites spanish cities are Salamanca and Granada. Now I wish I was there... Anyway, enjoy your stay in Spain.