Kia ora Posted August 27, 2015 Author Share Posted August 27, 2015 (edited) Also, Pie XII condemned the republican, but he did not liked Franco at all, and it tooks time for the regime of Franco to be recognized by the Vatican. We have a little the same history in France, when Pétain took powers during WWII. The Church of France collaborated with Pétain, while a lot of anonymous (or not), bishop, priest, and sisters, were part of the resistance and saved jewish life. He wasn't just recognised, Franco was awarded the Supreme Order of Christ by the Pope. Honestly I still don't understand it. Was the ability to take charge of Spanish society so much of a temptation that the Church simply decided to support a dictator? Really? Some day, each and every one of us will have to pay for our sins before the Judge. The left wouldn't be so powerful in France if the communists hadn't been the ones to take charge of the Resistance against the Nazis. Honestly it's kind of shameful; Christians should have been the first and the most powerful ones in fighting the fascists, not atheist communists. Edited August 27, 2015 by Kia ora Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NadaTeTurbe Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 About the communist : they exaggerated A LOT their participation in the Resistance. According to them, the number of communist who died under nazi bullet was in fact superior to the real number of communist ! The truth about the War in France is that a majority of French did nothing, another majority collaborated, a little minority resisted, but at the end of the war, everybody was a resistant ! Also, there's a difference between the Resistance (who wanted a free France), and the people who fighted for the jewish. If you're interested about monks and priest who fighted the facist in France, read about Père Marie-Benoît (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Père_Marie-Benoît ) who saved 4 000 jewish, or the Cardinal Saliège, who wrote a Pastoral letter (to be read in every church during the mass), against the nazis and for the jewish. It's only two exemple. There was also a lot of protestant in the Resistance. What is more frightening is that today, a lot of french catholic admire Pétain, hate le Général de Gaulle (I'm a gaullist), and think the jewish "complain too much" about the 2WW. I left the catholic group of my college because of this. I could not stand them singing "Maréchal nous voilà !" before going to mass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kia ora Posted August 27, 2015 Author Share Posted August 27, 2015 (edited) I left the catholic group of my college because of this. I could not stand them singing "Maréchal nous voilà !" before going to mass. They sing that before the mass? Before taking the body of Christ, the Prince of Peace? They're not National Front supporters are they on top of that? If you're interested about monks and priest who fighted the facist in France, read about Père Marie-Benoît (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Père_Marie-Benoît ) who saved 4 000 jewish, or the Cardinal Saliège, who wrote a Pastoral letter (to be read in every church during the mass), against the nazis and for the jewish. It's only two exemple. There was also a lot of protestant in the Resistance. Thank you for that, I did not know, God bless them. Edited August 27, 2015 by Kia ora Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NadaTeTurbe Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 It was before the mass. A boy protested, and they said the whole "you're too sensitive" "De Gaulle was a "déserteur", Pétain wanted to protect us, etc..." They hate De Gaulle because of Algeria, so they love Pétain. It's very complicated. The Algeria War still have a big impact on France today. No. The catholics here don't vote for the National Front, really. They will vote for the UMP, the right, but not the FN. And today, a lot of young catholic don't believe in politics. There's also some royalist. I support the Modem, a centrist party, with a catholic leader, and there's a lot of catholic in it. If you speak a good french, there's a very good book about the priest deported in Dachau : http://www.laprocure.com/baraque-pretres-dachau-1938-1945-guillaume-zeller/9791021004764.html "La baraque des prêtres" by Guillaum Zeller. Dachau is the "biggest cemetery of catholic priest in the world", and this book tell the story of this priest, their life, their faith... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 How do you believe French Catholics - all Catholics, really - should view Pétain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NadaTeTurbe Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 As a man who was once a hero - Verdun -, and then became a traitor, who yields France to the Nazis, while the english were resisting, and who was responsible for the deportation of jewish and Roma of France (and I don't even speak about the people of Alsace and Moselle !)!). Yes, he was old, yes, he was manipulated, but he did it. Our admiration should go to Churchill, to De Gaulle, not to Pétain. There's no excuse for that : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Is there, or should there be some nuance? Or is he nothing more than a former hero who became a villain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NadaTeTurbe Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 There was not nuance for the jewish in Auschwitz. There was no nuance for the resistant who were tortured by the millice. There was no nuance for the foreign soldiers - english, american, canadian, algerian, etc... - who died in France with the full support of Pétain. There was no nuance for all the alsaciens and mosellans who had to fight in the nazis armies because once again, France was to weak to support its own people. Pétain PERSONALLY participated in the redaction of the text of 1940, about the situation of jewish, and he PERSONALLY, (with notes writted from his own hands, in the official text), HARDENED the text. The texte was horrible, Pétain wanted it worst. He could have, at least, add nothing. He did. 80% of the jewish deported were arrested by the police du Maréchal, not by the nazis. My own ancestors were arrested by this police, the french police. The police of Pétain. you know what ? Hitler didn't want the collaboration. He thought France was a defeated country, not a partner country. Pétain went beyonds the nazis demends when it comes to the Jewish, the Resistant, the STO. HE wanted to support economically Germany. So, no, there's no nuance. There's no nuance, because it's not that he did nothing in face of the nazis : he did worse. He wanted the jewish to be deported, HE wanted the resistant to be killed. There's no nuance, there's no apologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Well, I do not know a huge amount about it, but De Gaulle himself did not seem to be so antagonistic towards Petain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Well, I do not know a huge amount about it, but De Gaulle himself did not seem to be so antagonistic towards Petain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NadaTeTurbe Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 De Gaulle said in his memory "the tragedy is that Pétain died in 1925, and nobody saw it" He admired him during the 1WW, but he was more on the Foch side when it comes to military strategy. He then fought the Petainist ideas : he did not want the jewish to wear the yellow star (Pétain wanted it), he did not want the jewish to be deported (Pétain wanted it), he wanted the France to fight and to be free (Pétain did not). See here : http://fresques.ina.fr/de-gaulle/fiche-media/Gaulle00302/reponse-au-marechal-petain-apres-la-declaration-d-armistice-du-25-juin-1940.html It's pretty antagonistic for me. (but from a political point of view, De Gaulle comes from a more conservative environment - he was a catholic, with royalist tendencies. De Gaulle was a strong catholic, he had a very "normal" private life (married to the same woman, etc...), while the private life of Pétain was more turbulent (he married only at the town hall in the 20's, and then married religiously in 1941, under the pression of the Church, and he asked to be married without confession). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 We kind of glossed over Spain during the WWII era in school. Shame. So while I don't know much about this particular situation I will say that it very much bothers me when fellow Catholics are nationalistic or imperialistic. Makes my stomach sick, and really challenges me on that whole "judge not lest ye be judged" thing. But what draws me to Catholicism is its universality and accessibility to people from every culture past and present so when Christians talk about how colonization and blowing rival nations to hell is a great, laudable and patriotic it is, I'm very saddened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kia ora Posted August 27, 2015 Author Share Posted August 27, 2015 (edited) They hate De Gaulle because of Algeria, so they love Pétain. It's very complicated. The Algeria War still have a big impact on France today. If you speak a good french, there's a very good book about the priest deported in Dachau : http://www.laprocure.com/baraque-pretres-dachau-1938-1945-guillaume-zeller/9791021004764.html "La baraque des prêtres" by Guillaum Zeller. Dachau is the "biggest cemetery of catholic priest in the world", and this book tell the story of this priest, their life, their faith... I know about the pieds-noirs, one of my friends comes from a pied-noir family, but not from North Africa but from the Sahara. One can't forget that they were the descendants of colonists living on colonised land, with Arabs and Berbers living as second-class citizens. On the same day as France was liberated, the French massacred thousands of Algerians who were protesting for the same freedom that the French had just won. That's not to say I approve of the nationalists, or the war at all, in fact the more I read about it the more I find it all atrocious. I find the French right-wing truly frightening. They used torture and massacres and rape just as easily as the other side did, it really does reveal the true face of colonialism. I don't see how any Christian could support oppression, nor violence. Ma biblio ne contient pas ce livre, alors je suppose qu'il me faille que je l'achète en Espagne, merci pour la recommandation. Edited August 27, 2015 by Kia ora Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NadaTeTurbe Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 The Algeria War, and the whole Algeria things, was an horrible, horrible war. It's just... I don't know, but the more I read about it, the more I feel like it was a Civil War, but extraterritorial. I think the worst was for the harkis. They were algerian, muslims, who fighted against the independance. France has abandoned them after the war, they had to stay in Algeria when they wanted to go to France. They were hated in Algeria, because they were "traitors", often, they were tortured and killed; And they were hated/ignored in France because they were algerian and muslims. http://www.lejourduseigneur.com/Web-TV/Focus/60-ans-de-la-Guerre-d-Algerie Here are some reportages with testimonies from christians who fought during the Algeria war. Bon séjour en Espagne, et bonne lecture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Interesting posts Nada, just wanted to say I don't know much about contemporary France but it seems like a complicated country in a way America isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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