Modesty: what's the point?

[Credo in Deum]

Does dressing modestly stop 100% of rapes? No. Do security systems stop 100% of robberies? No. Does this mean these things are therefore not important in preventing such actions? No. 

Modesty is important for men and women.  It is about glorifying God and having reverence for oneself and ones neighbor as being made in the image of God.  With humility and common sense I'm sure it's not hard to practice modesty even in a society that likes to paint immodesty as "self-expression."  I think the best question we can all ask ourselves when it comes to buying clothes for public use is, "does this item of clothing show that I am precious to God and made in His Image? Does this item show that God is important to me and that I care about the eternal destiny of my neighbor?"  If you can't say yes to those questions then don't buy it.   

 

[Lilllabettt]

Yeah. We don't blame people when burglars break into their house. We don't say "well did you have a security system? Did you lock your doors? No? Then you were asking for it. You deserved it. You invited people to rob you."

But it is 100% legit to advise people: look, it's a good idea to get a security system. You probably want to lock your doors. There are bad guys out there. And if the neighborhood is bad enough someone might justly accuse you of being irresponsible for not taking those steps.

But even if you are irresponsible, throw caution to the wind, leave your front door wide open, etc. It is still not your fault that bad people come and steal from you.

[Maggyie]

There's no evidence though, that "modest dressing" stops crimes from being committed. There just isn't. Literally the idea that clothing triggers rape is not evidence based. It's an old wives tale at this point. Rape is often not about sexual arousal but about power, humiliation, revenge. Usually a crime of opportunity not passion.

Whereas we do know that security systems reduce the likelihood of a breakin. 

Edited August 25, 2015 by Maggyie

[Seven77]

There's no evidence though, that "modest dressing" stops crimes from being committed. There just isn't. Literally the idea that clothing triggers rape is not evidence based. It's an old wives tale at this point. Rape is often not about sexual arousal but about power, humiliation, revenge. Usually a crime of opportunity not passion.

Whereas we do know that security systems reduce the likelihood of a breakin. 

Who is saying that "clothing triggers rape"? That article isn't---at least in my reading. Maybe i have problems with reading comprehension.

[Lilllabettt]

There's no evidence though, that "modest dressing" stops crimes from being committed. There just isn't. Literally the idea that clothing triggers rape is not evidence based. It's an old wives tale at this point. Rape is often not about sexual arousal but about power, humiliation, revenge. Usually a crime of opportunity not passion.

Whereas we do know that security systems reduce the likelihood of a breakin. 

 

Do you disagree with what I said, that even a pig will hesitate to disrespect a nun, while only gentlemen show respect to prostitutes?

If you would like to design a controlled, longitudinal study of women, dress patterns, and sexual assault prevalence, have at it. And good luck. Empiricism can only take you so far.

 

Rapists do not bother with evaluating whether a woman is interested in sex. They do not factor it in. But most sexual assaulters do not think of what they do as rape or sexual assault.

A woman dressed in skimpy clothes is broadcasting a message that she is trying to attract a sexual partner. It's not very different from an animal showing off plumage. Supposedly the bigger the display, the more interest -- or so it happens in the animal kingdom.

Here's what happens next. 

Male pig sees her on the street.

Male pig says to himself: Clearly this woman is interested in having a sexual experience. Really interested.

Male pig thinks: Why not with me? Anyone who is looking for sex would want to have it with me.

Male pig: Hey, baby

... and so it begins. Probably the male pig will ask her "why you so sexy" and the woman will end up in tears because she was approached on the street by an aroused stranger when all she wanted was to go to the nail salon.

My personal experience has been that this kind of thing will happen regardless of what I am wearing.

But to take the extreme example to prove a point: it does not happen as much to nuns. And that is because their clothing broadcasts an identity that says "I am not interested in a sexual partner"

So the corollary is: it is a bad idea to wear clothing which broadcasts the identity that says: I am very interested in a sexual partner. Very interested. VERY INTERESTED.

 

Edited August 25, 2015 by Lilllabettt

[Maggyie]

 

Do you disagree with what I said, that even a pig will hesitate to disrespect a nun, while only gentlemen show respect to prostitutes?

If you would like to design a controlled, longitudinal study of women, dress patterns, and sexual assault prevalence, have at it. And good luck. Empiricism can only take you so far.

 

Rapists do not bother with evaluating whether a woman is interested in sex. They do not factor it in. But most sexual assaulters do not think of what they do as rape or sexual assault.

A woman dressed in skimpy clothes is broadcasting a message that she is trying to attract a sexual partner. It's not very different from an animal showing off plumage. Supposedly the bigger the display, the more interest -- or so it happens in the animal kingdom.

Here's what happens next. 

Male pig sees her on the street.

Male pig says to himself: Clearly this woman is interested in having a sexual experience. Really interested.

Male pig thinks: Why not with me? Anyone who is looking for sex would want to have it with me.

Male pig: Hey, baby

... and so it begins. Probably the male pig will ask her "why you so sexy" and the woman will end up in tears because she was approached on the street by an aroused stranger when all she wanted was to go to the nail salon.

My personal experience has been that this kind of thing will happen regardless of what I am wearing.

But to take the extreme example to prove a point: it does not happen as much to nuns. And that is because their clothing broadcasts an identity that says "I am not interested in a sexual partner"

So the corollary is: it is a bad idea to wear clothing which broadcasts the identity that says: I am very interested in a sexual partner. Very interested. VERY INTERESTED.

 

that's not how rape happens though... Guys who rape are not picking out women on the street. That kind of rape is actually quite rare. It's usually 2 people who know each other who are alone together where the opportunity presents itself. If nuns hung out with men a lot they would be at equal risk of rape, however instead they are mostly around other women and are rarely alone with a man. They also aren't usually in a situation where drugs or alcohol are being used (another actual risk factor). 

[Gabriela]

This article have such a low idea of men, it's frightening. In a way, it is the same way of thinking than some radical feminist. 
 

Have you ever been frustrated by the way men treat women and wondered what could be done to restore a sense of respect? If so, the solution is closer to you than you realize" While our culture treat women like object and like to represent men (in movies, books) like pigs, most of the men that I know treat women with respect and dignity. Men are grown-up and able to control themself. 

"Whether a woman realizes it or not, the way she dresses has an extraordinary ability to help shape a man into a gentleman or into a beast." This is very close to the "she was raped because her skirt was too short". Again, the men that I see around me are not "a gentleman or a beast" because of how the women around them dress, but because of education, politeness, and own characters. 

In order to appreciate the influence that women have on men, females must first realize that males are very visual creatures. This is partly because of how their minds work, but it is also because women possess great beauty. In fact, nothing on earth approaches the beauty of women." So, women are not visual creatures ? Men have no great beauty ? You know, women can be attracted to men because of their beauty too. 

Because the beauty of the woman can be intoxicating to a man, he may find it difficult to see beyond it. " Again, are men so stupid ? Are they so controlled my hormones ? 

Modern culture tells women, “If your body is so great, show yourself!” The woman who understands her worth resists such an invitation and replies, “Because of my value, I veil myself. My body was not given to me for the sake of exposing it to you. If I show too much, I wouldn’t be revealing my true worth to you. I’d be distracting you from what matters most." This look like the testimony of muslim women on why she chooses to wear niqab. 

Therefore, the men who frustrate or upset you by whistling or making crude remarks need you to realize your own dignity as a daughter of God" Any man who make crude remarks need an education. Same things for women who judge men bodies by crude remarks. Seriously. 

Btw, while I agree on the fact that our culture sexualize women, let's not forget that our cultures also : 
a) Sexualize A LOT men, with impossible standard to reach for them, causing many men to have a bad body image 
b) Deshumanize men a lot, when they represent them (by movies, books), like pigs obsessed by sex. Here's a comic who speak about it with humor : http://www.collegehumor.com/post/7030066/guys-in-movies-vs-real-life 

Instead of this, I prefer this testimonies by Elizabeth Esther (who was raised by fundamentalist baptist - long skirt, etc... and then later converted to catholicism). I copy the extract that interest me : 
 

My three older kids are working through their second year of faith formation in our Catholic parish. Last week, they came home with a packet about physical, symbolic and internal boundaries. As I flipped through the worksheets, I saw the word MODESTY and my heart froze. I could feel thoseold purity culture ideas rearing their shame-y, blame-y heads. But then I read the definition. And I got all happy because here, read it for yourselves:

Modesty: The virtue that respects, honors and protects privacy: the quality of avoiding extremes of emotion, action, dress and language. Modesty respects my boundaries and the boundaries of others.

What a well-rounded, WHOLE-PERSON approach to understanding the virtue of modesty! This is a perfect example of why I love Catholicism--the theology isn't compartmentalized; meaning,modesty isn't exclusively about manner of dress but about the WHOLE WAY we live our lives.

The Catholic understanding of modesty is that it encompasses ALL we do.

In purity culture, modesty was exclusively about sexuality; more specifically, female sexuality.

But the true modesty goes far, far beyond that. It's about how we speak, how we act and it's about avoiding extremes. Modesty is about moderation, respect for my boundaries and the boundaries of others. It's about avoiding excess.

Couldn't we say, then, that all Christians are called to live modestly? I mean, if modesty is a virtue, it's not just for women. But how often do you ever hear Christians speaking about men being modest?

How often do we speak about modesty in regards to how we eat, how we spend our money, the kind of car we drive, the kind of house we live in?

http://www.elizabethesther.com/archives/2013/10/modesty-doesnt-live-in-a-multi-million-dollar-mansion.html 

This is what modest is for me. It's not ONLY about how we dress. It's about how we eat : eating too little is bad, and eating too much is bad too. "Avoiding extremes of action, dress and language" is very counter-cultural. 

You make great posts, Nada.

This part of the article is absolutely true. btw, what do you have against Muslims? 

Where the thing goes wrong is in suggesting that the way a woman dresses determines whether a particular man will be a gentleman to her. No. A real gentleman will speak to female prostitutes, strippers, drug addicts, thieves, etc. as kindly, gently, and with as much respect as he does his own wife or mother. That is  the gentleman test. Any man will treat a nun with respect, but only a true gentleman shows respect to infamous women. 

 

Also a great point.

To be completely honest, my first thought on seeing the title of this thread was, "Another modesty thread on Phatmass: what's the point?"

Exactly what I thought. And I didn't bother reading the article.

[Era Might]

Modesty and maturity go together. A person who is a prude or squeamish about the body is not mature, any more than a person who has no self-respect. We shouldn't mistake piousness for virtue. Some people cover up because they are ashamed of their body, some people sleep around because their hearts are too big. Obviously, when you're at a bar at a certain time in a certain way (drunk, half-naked, whatever) you know what you're trying to get into. Make good decisions and discipline yourself..modesty is a fruit of that.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Era Might

[PhuturePriest]

Very silly article. A woman can't teach a man how to treat women through her dress. It simply doesnt work. That has to be taught by other men. That's why fathers are so important! 

Modest dress also doesn't protect one from mistreatment. Many women dress far more modestly than you, MLF, in the middle east; and yet rape, sexual assault and a profound lack of dignity for women are very common there. Why, because the men are taught to behave that way by their fathers...

modesty does not mean ugly. Unfortunately many women who attempt to dress modestly wear very plain, homely clothing in dark colors. They don't go shopping and carefully choose their clothes to look as lovely and attractive as possible. You could argue from the same principles that this is quite sinful since such clothing disfigures the image of woman's glorious body. It is like putting the tabernacle in a burlap sack. Yes God veils what is precious but he covers it with splendor. 

I think you undervalue the lessons women can teach men, and vice-versa. 

You also forget that actions speak louder than words. I'm not saying modesty is the way to fix all the problems in the world, but it is important and does a world of good for many reasons.

[Credo in Deum]

There's no evidence though, that "modest dressing" stops crimes from being committed. There just isn't. Literally the idea that clothing triggers rape is not evidence based. It's an old wives tale at this point. Rape is often not about sexual arousal but about power, humiliation, revenge. Usually a crime of opportunity not passion.

Whereas we do know that security systems reduce the likelihood of a breakin. 

LOL! Of course there is no evidence to prove that modest clothing will prevent a sexual assault. This is because no one can document what a person would have done but didn't do, and no person with half a brain is going to admit they were thinking about sexuality assaulting someone or were triggered to sexually assault someone but didn't, based on how they're dressed.   

Edited August 25, 2015 by Credo in Deum

[Maggyie]

LOL! Of course there is no evidence to prove that modest clothing will prevent a sexual assault. This is because no one can document what a person would have done but didn't do, and no person with half a brain is going to admit they were thinking about sexuality assaulting someone or were triggered to sexually assault someone but didn't, based on how they're dressed.   

actually I encourage you to write any sex offender in your prison system and ask if the length of a woman's skirt had anything to do with their choice of victim. Many of them are surprisingly frank. 

Hint, they will tell you they didn't choose the woman based on her neckline, they chose her because the opportunity to have sex presented itself, and they felt their desire to have sex was more valid than their victim's reluctance.

In reality of course sex crime has nothing to do with normal arousal. These people are not turned on by clothes, they are aroused by violence, humiliating the victim, feeling empowered. 

The whole "your clothes are sending a message that you want it,  dress like a nun if you don't want it, nuns don't get raped" thing is hugely creepy. It's also sad because it promotes a belief that subcultures that practice conservative dress won't be vulnerable to sexual assault. Wrong. 

Edited August 25, 2015 by Maggyie

[Lilllabettt]

that's not how rape happens though... Guys who rape are not picking out women on the street. That kind of rape is actually quite rare. It's usually 2 people who know each other who are alone together where the opportunity presents itself. If nuns hung out with men a lot they would be at equal risk of rape, however instead they are mostly around other women and are rarely alone with a man. They also aren't usually in a situation where drugs or alcohol are being used (another actual risk factor). 

 

ummmmm.... tons of sexual assault happens in broad daylight in full view of the public. most assault does not involve holding a woman down alone in the dark and penetrating her while she screams.

We agree that unworthy men will say and do things to a girl dressed like a prostitute. But you honestly believe these men would be unashamed to try the same stuff with a nun....

that is lala land, in my opinion.

obviously some men are truly shameless, and for them it makes no difference.

but if you honestly think it makes no difference to safety and well being when women who are NOT interested in hooking up dress like women who ARE interested in hooking up ... well ... that is la la land, imo.

There are lots of men who will not even bother to ask, they just assume the clothing is a standing invitation.

Blah blah blah raise boys so that they will not treat women that way, or make assumptions based on clothing.

But blah blah that does not help women who have to pass safely through the world as it exists today

[Credo in Deum]

 

ummmmm.... tons of sexual assault happens in broad daylight in full view of the public. most assault does not involve holding a woman down alone in the dark and penetrating her while she screams.

We agree that unworthy men will say and do things to a girl dressed like a prostitute. But you honestly believe these men would be unashamed to try the same stuff with a nun....

that is lala land, in my opinion.

obviously some men are truly shameless, and for them it makes no difference.

but if you honestly think it makes no difference to safety and well being when women who are NOT interested in hooking up dress like women who ARE interested in hooking up ... well ... that is la la land, imo.

There are lots of men who will not even bother to ask, they just assume the clothing is a standing invitation.

Blah blah blah raise boys so that they will not treat women that way, or make assumptions based on clothing.

But blah blah that does not help women who have to pass safely through the world as it exists today

Wait, you mean rape isn't the only form of sexual assault?

*mind blown*

[Lil Red]

Very silly article. A woman can't teach a man how to treat women through her dress. It simply doesnt work. That has to be taught by other men. That's why fathers are so important! 

Modest dress also doesn't protect one from mistreatment. Many women dress far more modestly than you, MLF, in the middle east; and yet rape, sexual assault and a profound lack of dignity for women are very common there. Why, because the men are taught to behave that way by their fathers...

modesty does not mean ugly. Unfortunately many women who attempt to dress modestly wear very plain, homely clothing in dark colors. They don't go shopping and carefully choose their clothes to look as lovely and attractive as possible. You could argue from the same principles that this is quite sinful since such clothing disfigures the image of woman's glorious body. It is like putting the tabernacle in a burlap sack. Yes God veils what is precious but he covers it with splendor. 

great post, especially that bolded part.  

 

Instead of this, I prefer this testimonies by Elizabeth Esther (who was raised by fundamentalist baptist - long skirt, etc... and then later converted to catholicism). I copy the extract that interest me : 
 

My three older kids are working through their second year of faith formation in our Catholic parish. Last week, they came home with a packet about physical, symbolic and internal boundaries. As I flipped through the worksheets, I saw the word MODESTY and my heart froze. I could feel thoseold purity culture ideas rearing their shame-y, blame-y heads. But then I read the definition. And I got all happy because here, read it for yourselves:

Modesty: The virtue that respects, honors and protects privacy: the quality of avoiding extremes of emotion, action, dress and language. Modesty respects my boundaries and the boundaries of others.

What a well-rounded, WHOLE-PERSON approach to understanding the virtue of modesty! This is a perfect example of why I love Catholicism--the theology isn't compartmentalized; meaning,modesty isn't exclusively about manner of dress but about the WHOLE WAY we live our lives.

I think that's why I get so irritated with most "modesty" articles. Because they usually take the word "modesty" and use it to only apply to our clothing.