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Pope tells priests to pardon women who have abortions


StMichael

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I have 3 daughters and 1 son who didn't make it at birth.

:sad:

I am so sorry, anglefire. It seems, however, that you have healed from these tragedies well. God bless you!

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I never knew this. So a man could kill his wife or commit mass murder and go be forgiven and absolved by a Priest. But if a woman has an abortion and commits murder she is automatically excommunicated and can't be forgiven by a Priest? Like all the other tough teachings I accept it but at first glance it seems questionable and tough to swallow.

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Ash Wednesday

I never knew this. So a man could kill his wife or commit mass murder and go be forgiven and absolved by a Priest. But if a woman has an abortion and commits murder she is automatically excommunicated and can't be forgiven by a Priest? Like all the other tough teachings I accept it but at first glance it seems questionable and tough to swallow.

It would probably a good idea to read up on this. I've done some reading on the matter, but I don't want to give the wrong or confusing answer and there's probably someone else who can explain this better than I, but I'll post a couple of links -- it's not quite so simplistic as how you are describing it. And there are a number of particular sins that incur the Latae sententiae excommunication (heresy, apostacy, desecrating the host, breaking the seal of confession, physically attacking the pope)

http://catholicherald.com/stories/Straight-Answers-Automatic-Excommunication-for-Those-Who-Procure-Abortion,6743

http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/strong-medicine

 

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Basilisa Marie

I never knew this. So a man could kill his wife or commit mass murder and go be forgiven and absolved by a Priest. But if a woman has an abortion and commits murder she is automatically excommunicated and can't be forgiven by a Priest? Like all the other tough teachings I accept it but at first glance it seems questionable and tough to swallow.

Again, it has everything to do with the difference between sin and crimes in the Church.  Some things are sins that also qualify as special crimes. Crimes are a different category and carry penalties. The penalty of excommunication means you are barred from the sacraments. You can't receive absolution until your penalty is lifted.  It's not an issue of which sins are biggest or most horrifying.  Crimes hurt the Church in a particular kind of way and excommunication is a kind of penalty that is supposed to help the Church and wake the person up to the severity of the situation.  

Edit: and like Nihil and others have said, there's actually a lot of debate about whether a woman who seeks an abortion actually qualifies for committing a crime with excommunication. I'd even say it may not count as a mortal sin if she's being severely pressured into it, if she's unable to think clearly because of her mental or emotional state, or if she doesn't understand how seriously wrong abortion is. Doctors who perform abortions are almost always much more culpable because they are more fully free to choose to participate in an abortion.

Edited by Basilisa Marie
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Basilisa Marie

Murder is murder is it not ?

...I literally just said it has nothing to do with how serious the sin is. Otherwise all sorts of sins would get you excommunicated, but they don't. Sin and crime in the Church are two different things. 

And murder is not just murder. Action intention, and circumstance all matter when we're talking about sin. Murdering eighty children is different from murdering a baby in the womb is different from murdering my father to get money is different from murdering a stranger because a mob boss is holding your child hostage.  In our civil courts we don't just have one penalty for the intentional killing of an innocent person do we? 

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Ok anyhow I will just file it under sorta tough to understand but just accept because that's the way it is. Not saying that maliciously it's just easier that way and the wisest thing to do I think. It just seems odd at first glance. Thanks for the replies.

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Not The Philosopher

My understanding - although I could be completely off base for this - is that part of the rationale behind the excommunication is that abortion is something which is frequently legal and socially accepted, so there's more of a need to remind the faithful about the gravity of the sin than there would be for, say, killing an adult man. Kinda similar to how duels of honor were made an excommunicable offense in a time when those were more prominent.

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Ash Wednesday

My understanding - although I could be completely off base for this - is that part of the rationale behind the excommunication is that abortion is something which is frequently legal and socially accepted, so there's more of a need to remind the faithful about the gravity of the sin than there would be for, say, killing an adult man. Kinda similar to how duels of honor were made an excommunicable offense in a time when those were more prominent.

I did read something similar -- that latae setentiae often involves offences where a penalty is incurred in order to correct erroneous beliefs. It's not terribly difficult for people to understand that certain sins like rape and murder are wrong. But people don't always understand that abortion is wrong.

Excommunication is not the same as being in a state of mortal sin, it does not implicate eternal consequences the same way that mortal sin does. 

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=516424

I thought this post explained it particularly well -- if I'm wrong, someone please correct me, but it's my understanding as well:

 

Mortal sin refers to the state of grace (or rather, the lack thereof); excommunication refers to the state of the person's relationship with the Church (the Mystical Body of Christ).

It is important to note that being in the state of mortal sin and being in the state of excommunication are not interchangeable; they exist on two different planes. It is sometimes the case that the two states are found in the same individual, but certainly not the rule. So someone who has procured an abortion would be both in the state of mortal sin and in the state of excommunication latae sententiae (incurred by the act itself). Someone who has committed murder would be in the state of mortal sin but not necessarily in the state of excommunication. Someone who attacks a bishop may incur the state of excommunication without necessarily committing a mortal sin.

Mortal sins can be forgiven in the context of sacramental confession. Period. As long as it's a valid confession, the individual is no longer in the state of mortal sin after absolution. Excommunication can be lifted within the context of confession as well, if the excommunication is not "public" - latae sententiae excommunications, because it's not an explicit excommunication declared by the Church, can usually be lifted in confession, provided the ordinary of the diocese has given permission for the priest to do so (and most do). An exception is if the excommunication is something so grave that the Apostolic See reserves the sole right to lift it. Someone who publicly argues that abortion is good may be excommunicated ferendae sententiae, in which the Church publicly declares that the individual has removed him/herself from the Church. These excommunications can only be lifted through the proper channels.

So to answer your question - normally someone who gets an abortion is not "excommunicated publicly" and can return to the sacraments through Confession. But by asking about excommunication and mortal sin, you are asking about two different but related things.

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but most priests have already been given the authority to forgive abortion by their bishops right? Maybe some regions are different than others.

 

The pastor in my parish addressed it this morning actually. He said that in the USA all priests have been given permission by their bishops to forgive abortion, but that in some parts of the world Bishops still reserve forgiveness of the sin to themselves. It seems that for those countries Pope Francis has given all of the priests permission to forgive it for the Year of Mercy, regardless of whether the local Bishop has permitted it or not . . .

So I must have misunderstood what my RCIA priest said concerning that point.

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Unfortunately some numpty is going to read the header and think the pope is excusing or permissive of abortion. I'll need to fact check it, but I came across an info snippet suggesting that surprising number of Catholics actually believe the pope supports gay marriage. :getaclue:

In a world that is slogan led (Love wins, hands up, don't shoot, etc.) yes. Saying "who am I to judge," does create a gray area where one previously did not exist. And either you take Pope Francis at his word or you don't. 

In this case he clearly has stated that in this Holy Year "[He] will give all priests discretion during the Roman Catholic Church's Holy Year to formally forgive women who have had abortions." Francis described the "existential and moral ordeal" faced by women who have terminated pregnancies and said he had "met so many women who bear in their heart the scar of this agonizing and painful decision". 

"This is by no means an attempt to minimize the gravity of this sin, but to widen the possibility of showing mercy," Vatican chief spokesman Father Federico Lombardi told reporters.

Deputy Vatican spokesman Father Ciro Benedettini said that "for now" the change would apply only during the Holy Year.

So, yes, Pope Francis has extended "amnesty" for this year. If you had an abortion, rush to your nearest priest and be absolved.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/01/us-pope-abortion-idUSKCN0R13DT20150901

 

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Ash Wednesday

In a world that is slogan led (Love wins, hands up, don't shoot, etc.) yes. Saying "who am I to judge," does create a gray area where one previously did not exist. And either you take Pope Francis at his word or you don't. 

Tell that to the press. What he said in full was: "If a person is gay and seeks God and has good will, who am I to judge?" In the same presser he reaffirmed that homosexual acts were still a sin. I don't think the pope intended to create a grey area, but the media did a brilliant job of taking it and making one.

When he was in Argentina, the pope referred to gay marriage as "diabolical" and from the "Father of Lies."

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I have a question : if someone kill a child (not in utero, let's say a 3 years old kid), is he excommunicated like if he has commited an abortion ? 

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I have a question : if someone kill a child (not in utero, let's say a 3 years old kid), is he excommunicated like if he has commited an abortion ? 

No - because everyone knows that it is a horrible act.  Part of the reason abortion is excommunicatable is to reinforce that it is profoundly sinful and the taking of a human life.

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