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Jewish / Old Testament stuff // question


superblue

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Maybe someone can direct me to a website rather than just surfing bing or wiki for an answer, or any insights to this would be I think interesting.

I was wondering exactly what the Jewish people at the time of Christ expected if they were waiting for the Son of God...  Did they have this mindset that God would do exactly this or that so that the Jewish people knew who the Son is ? An if so what was the image they had in mind ?

Then going from the Old Testament to the New / we have a succession  of  covenants Moses, Noah, Abraham, etc  

After the Old Testament covenants, and the Jewish scriptures coming into existence; did the Jewish people expect or were waiting for God to send his Son, to bring in the Kingdom of Heaven, or were they just content that everything that was going to happen has happened.

( I didn't know what to title this )

More over, I really do not remember learning the answer to any of these questions growing up. And the stuff  I am learning now about the old testament does not lend the time to ask deeper or even beginner questions.

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To put it concisely: The Jews expected a political Messiah. They believed that the Messiah would kick the Romans out of the Holy Land and establish his own rule in Jerusalem, restore the entire land of Israel to Jewish rule, etc.

The Jews did not believe that the Messiah would be the "Son of God" in the sense that we mean that. They are strictly monotheistic, accepting nothing smacking of Trinitarianism or Dualism or any other "separation" in the Godhead. They believed the Messiah would be just a normal Jew chosen by God to save His people.

They believed the Messiah would usher in an earthly kingdom of peace for Jews, and of their (peaceful) dominance over the other nations.

They still believe these things today, and are still waiting for the Messiah, as evidenced in the sayings used in many Jewish rituals.

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One of the reasons that the Jews don't believe in Jesus today is that they don't think he can be the Messiah because he didn't "finish his job," and they don't like the second coming as the solution to that issue. 

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so, finish a job, but " they " it seems like didn't even have a real description at the very least written down as in okay, when our " earthly king " comes, he is going to look like this way, come in this exact fashion and he is going to do x,y,and z.

Also what I find bizarre is, all through out scripture, it is at least to me,  seems that there is underlying idea that they get the drift that he isn't just the average prophet, yet the big plan is to keep on antagonizing Christ, instead of just flat out asking the question they want to ask.

so, instead of going  hang on a second we have some questions, how come this an this an this didn't happen like we expected and wanted.

which they can't even properly define or write down all they have I guess now is a vague notion of i guess someone in a chariot in garments and a crown coming down from the clouds or who knows.

An i dunno, but Moses coming down from a mountain, with tablets, and all shining from encountering God, that is credible, a burning bush, that is credible, everything Moses did was credible and worth following at least to a point till they started complaining. The reason of thinking back then when looking at things just doesn't add up to being intimidated / fearful of losing their status and power.

 

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so, finish a job, but " they " it seems like didn't even have a real description at the very least written down as in okay, when our " earthly king " comes, he is going to look like this way, come in this exact fashion and he is going to do x,y,and z.

Also what I find bizarre is, all through out scripture, it is at least to me,  seems that there is underlying idea that they get the drift that he isn't just the average prophet, yet the big plan is to keep on antagonizing Christ, instead of just flat out asking the question they want to ask.

so, instead of going  hang on a second we have some questions, how come this an this an this didn't happen like we expected and wanted.

which they can't even properly define or write down all they have I guess now is a vague notion of i guess someone in a chariot in garments and a crown coming down from the clouds or who knows.

An i dunno, but Moses coming down from a mountain, with tablets, and all shining from encountering God, that is credible, a burning bush, that is credible, everything Moses did was credible and worth following at least to a point till they started complaining. The reason of thinking back then when looking at things just doesn't add up to being intimidated / fearful of losing their status and power.

 

Your expectation that they would write these things down is a "literate bias". Yes, the Jews were literate, but they lived in a primarily oral culture. They had (and still have) a VERY rich oral tradition. Of course, today, most of that tradition has been written down. But for a society at the time we're talking about to write down everything circulating orally is just not feasible. They didn't have printing presses, much less computers.

The Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, has a lot about the Messiah. This is all now written down. But the "core" of the Talmud is the oral tradition, and before the destruction of the Second Temple (after Christ's death), the oral tradition was just that—oral. You can read more about the "fixing" of the oral tradition in writing here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud

Oral cultures deal with information in a very different way than we do. (For more on that, read Fr. Walter Ong, SJ, "Orality and Literacy".) Their understandings of things are much more flexible and adaptive, because they don't have a text to refer to as "authoritative". Additionally, the Jews are a very contentious people, never shy about disagreeing. You can see this in the differing interpretations of the Pharisees and Sadducees in the Bible (or in the joke that, where there are two Jews, there are three opinions).

What shocks me much more than what you've pointed out is that some modern Lubavitcher Jews believe that their rebbe is the Messiah. He's dead. They believe he'll come back from the dead. If they can believe that about him, why not about Jesus? When I found out that some Lubavitchers (who tend to be extremely well educated in the Torah and Talmud) believe that about the rebbe, I started having serious doubts about Judaism's rejection of Christ. The rebbe was not an earthly king, he didn't restore the Land of Israel, and he didn't establish a reign of the Jews over the world. He died of a heart attack in Crown Heights, New York. If he can be the Messiah, why not Jesus?

Edited by Gabriela
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What shocks me much more than what you've pointed out is that some modern Lubavitcher Jews believe that their rebbe is the Messiah. He's dead. They believe he'll come back from the dead. If they can believe that about him, why not about Jesus? When I found out that some Lubavitchers (who tend to be extremely well educated in the Torah and Talmud) believe that about the rebbe, I started having serious doubts about Judaism's rejection of Christ. The rebbe was not an earthly king, he didn't restore the Land of Israel, and he didn't establish a reign of the Jews over the world. He died of a heart attack in Crown Heights, New York. If he can be the Messiah, why not Jesus?

Yes yes yes. I was close to the lubavitch. I wasn't very involved because my parents did not want me to (they thought it was cult-like), but when I heard about people praying on the Rebbe tumb, I was like "It is a little catholic, no ?". Most of the Lubavitch that I knew believed that the Rebbe was the Messiah... But, in my local jewish community, they were see as "jewish who don't do judaism". 

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Yes yes yes. I was close to the lubavitch. I wasn't very involved because my parents did not want me to (they thought it was cult-like), but when I heard about people praying on the Rebbe tumb, I was like "It is a little catholic, no ?". Most of the Lubavitch that I knew believed that the Rebbe was the Messiah... But, in my local jewish community, they were see as "jewish who don't do judaism". 

Yes. Lubavitchers who believe the rebbe was Moshiach are called "Meshichists" and they're viewed with suspicion and sometimes outright disdain by other Jews, including non-Meshichist Lubavitchers. That issue has really divided the Lubavitch movement, which, in other regards, I consider one of the most positive movements in Judaism today.

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Their Chabad magazine is super cool. I still receive it and read it, and I have given a lot of them to explain judaism to my family and friend. 

but I remember being around 13, speaking with a woman who told me that the Rebbe was not the Messiah because he did not resurrect, and I thought "well, Jesus resurrected"

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Their Chabad magazine is super cool. I still receive it and read it, and I have given a lot of them to explain judaism to my family and friend. 

but I remember being around 13, speaking with a woman who told me that the Rebbe was not the Messiah because he did not resurrect, and I thought "well, Jesus resurrected"

Chabad is a good way to learn about modern Judaism, but it'd be misleading to confuse modern Judaism with Judaism in biblical times. A lot of people do that. They think every Jewish ritual, teaching, and practice goes back to before Jesus, and has been totally unchanged since. That's quite wrong. I'm not saying you think this, just that lots of people do. So I think it needs stating explicitly that, while some stuff is the same, a lot also isn't.

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Yes, you're right ! Also, it's very azkhenazi, and sometimes ignore Sephardim and Mizrahim traditions. 

I used to think that following some rituals would bring me closer to Jesus, but I read a book, something called "The land of Jesus", who speak about the everyday life of Jesus (how he ate, dressed, religious rite), and it made things clear for me. This kind of book is, I think, very important to really understand the Bible. 

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so, finish a job, but " they " it seems like didn't even have a real description at the very least written down as in okay, when our " earthly king " comes, he is going to look like this way, come in this exact fashion and he is going to do x,y,and z.

Also what I find bizarre is, all through out scripture, it is at least to me,  seems that there is underlying idea that they get the drift that he isn't just the average prophet, yet the big plan is to keep on antagonizing Christ, instead of just flat out asking the question they want to ask.

so, instead of going  hang on a second we have some questions, how come this an this an this didn't happen like we expected and wanted.

which they can't even properly define or write down all they have I guess now is a vague notion of i guess someone in a chariot in garments and a crown coming down from the clouds or who knows.

An i dunno, but Moses coming down from a mountain, with tablets, and all shining from encountering God, that is credible, a burning bush, that is credible, everything Moses did was credible and worth following at least to a point till they started complaining. The reason of thinking back then when looking at things just doesn't add up to being intimidated / fearful of losing their status and power.

 

 so trying to get back to what i was asking, 

we do know that in the time of Christ society was not of the Flintstone era anymore, the Jewish people at the time had recorded plenty of scriptures that were read, the Tora was in use, they saw plenty of prophets before Christ,  didn't believe any of them.... so exactly what where the Jews expecting, and or are still expecting specifically ?

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 so trying to get back to what i was asking, 

we do know that in the time of Christ society was not of the Flintstone era anymore, the Jewish people at the time had recorded plenty of scriptures that were read, the Tora was in use, they saw plenty of prophets before Christ,  didn't believe any of them.... so exactly what where the Jews expecting, and or are still expecting specifically ?

It's a shame that you block my posts, because I've already answered this very thoroughly.

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:nuke:

 so trying to get back to what i was asking, 

we do know that in the time of Christ society was not of the Flintstone era anymore, the Jewish people at the time had recorded plenty of scriptures that were read, the Tora was in use, they saw plenty of prophets before Christ,  didn't believe any of them.... so exactly what where the Jews expecting, and or are still expecting specifically ?

 okay side note note, and i get it people on my ignore list want my attention desperately , i am actually hoping others out there might have something relevant or can come close to answering this  or 

so, finish a job, but " they " it seems like didn't even have a real description at the very least written down as in okay, when our " earthly king " comes, he is going to look like this way, come in this exact fashion and he is going to do x,y,and z.

Also what I find bizarre is, all through out scripture, it is at least to me,  seems that there is underlying idea that they get the drift that he isn't just the average prophet, yet the big plan is to keep on antagonizing Christ, instead of just flat out asking the question they want to ask.

so, instead of going  hang on a second we have some questions, how come this an this an this didn't happen like we expected and wanted.

which they can't even properly define or write down all they have I guess now is a vague notion of i guess someone in a chariot in garments and a crown coming down from the clouds or who knows.

An i dunno, but Moses coming down from a mountain, with tablets, and all shining from encountering God, that is credible, a burning bush, that is credible, everything Moses did was credible and worth following at least to a point till they started complaining. The reason of thinking back then when looking at things just doesn't add up to being intimidated / fearful of losing their status and power.

 

this,

 

i specifically do not read comments from people on my iggy list for a reason because it usually is just some troll baiting going on and the person(s) more often than not choose to twist my words around instead of trying to think things out.

but i do appreciate C.M input thus far.

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It's a shame that you block my posts, because I've already answered this very thoroughly.

I think you explained it pretty well. It's not something I really thought about before but I've found this thread insightful. 

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