How to deal with school bullies

[Winchester]

"Any action that is a precursor to a crime is a pre crime"  

 

Could that also be correct?

I wouldn't agree to that. Eating would be a "pre-crime". I think it's a faulty way to look at the world.

But in context, "pre-crime" means enacting prohibitions against actions. Prohibitions are enforced by violence. Pre-crime legislation is initiation of violence. So I don't support it.

 

[CrossCuT]

I wouldn't agree to that. Eating would be a "pre-crime". I think it's a faulty way to look at the world.

But in context, "pre-crime" means enacting prohibitions against actions. Prohibitions are enforced by violence. Pre-crime legislation is initiation of violence. So I don't support it.

 

So a pre crime is any law?

[Winchester]

"Any action that is a precursor to a crime is a pre crime"  

 

Could that also be correct? Does it have to actually result in said crime? Or could an initial action that never comes to fruition still be a pre crime?

Jw. If an action leads to a crime, then its a crime. Or would you say for instance, holding a gun is a pre crime? and shooting it is the crime?

Like driving a car to a robbery...is the action of driving a pre crime?

If you regard all use of guns to be criminal, then that's a yes. I don't regard all use of guns to be criminal, so it's a no.

So a pre crime is any law?

I've given an example of pre-crime. I have nowhere indicated that no acts are crimes (which is what it would take for all laws to be "pre-crime", although that wouldn't work either because it would be like something being "pre-unicorn", but it's the closest I can possibly come to dealing with what you said). If you can't work from there then I think communicating this idea to you is beyond me.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Winchester

[CrossCuT]

If you regard all use of guns to be criminal, then that's a yes. I don't regard all use of guns to be criminal, so it's a no.

I've given an example of pre-crime. I have nowhere indicated that no acts are crimes (which is what it would take for all laws to be "pre-crime", although that wouldn't work either because it would be like something being "pre-unicorn", but it's the closest I can possibly come to dealing with what you said). If you can't work from there then I think communicating this idea to you is beyond me.

I wouldnt say all use of guns criminal, but I would say all use of guns  is violence or intended as a precursor to violence whether its for police use or hunting. The gun is meant to harm or impale an object as a means of forced control of a situation. If you have a gun, you have power over another person/animal/object with a threat of death, pain, or bodily harm of some sort. A gun is inherently violent.

 

I wouldn't agree to that. Eating would be a "pre-crime". I think it's a faulty way to look at the world.

But in context, "pre-crime" means enacting prohibitions against actions. Prohibitions are enforced by violence. Pre-crime legislation is initiation of violence. So I don't support it.

 

So laws against stealing is also a pre crime since its prohibiting an action. A speeding sign would also be a pre crime since it is prohibiting you from taking an action of going beyond the limit. Arent all laws prohibiting an action?

Edited September 28, 2015 by CrossCuT

[Winchester]

So laws against stealing is also a pre crime since its prohibiting an action. A speeding sign would also be a pre crime since it is prohibiting you from taking an action of going beyond the limit. Arent all laws prohibiting an action?

Do you regard stealing as a precursor to a crime, or a crime in itself?

[CrossCuT]

Do you regard stealing as a precursor to a crime, or a crime in itself?

Edit: crime (read it as something else)

Edited September 28, 2015 by CrossCuT

[Nihil Obstat]

A gun is inherently violent

1. What about sport/target/recreational shooting?
2. Is violence inherently criminal and/or immoral? 

[CrossCuT]

1. What about sport/target/recreational shooting?
2. Is violence inherently criminal and/or immoral? 

If someone was going to rape you but you shot them with a gun, I would say its still violent but its not criminal since it was in self defense. 

[Nihil Obstat]

If someone was going to rape you but you shot them with a gun, I would say its still violent but its not criminal since it was in self defense. 

So then owning a tool which is typically intended to be violent (still a debatable proposition, but granted for now) is not inherently wrong since violence itself has appropriate context. Therefore not "pre-crime". And I am starting to get really sick of this term. Can we switch to some moniker that is less dumb?

[NadaTeTurbe]

Making an action illegal based on the idea that said action is a precursor to crime. For instance, gun control. In this case, prohibiting self defense because there is a concern that self defense will cease to be proportional is the pre-crime.

So, you think that all the countries who have gun control and have a low crim rate should stop gun control ? Because I live in a country with a strong gun control, where I'm 50 less likely to be killed by gun than in the US, and I don't think that we're living in situation of pre-crime here. 

Also, I do recreational shooting (it give me confidence, and I want to hunt later). We just don't keep our guns at home. We let them at the shooting range, where they are keep in safety. Some people take them at home, but you need a lot of authorization. Also, before learning recreational shooting, I had to show that I've never been to jail and was not crazy. Maybe it's a pre-crime, but I'm pretty happy that we don't let murderers and crazy people learn to shoot. 

[CrossCuT]

So, you think that all the countries who have gun control and have a low crim rate should stop gun control ? Because I live in a country with a strong gun control, where I'm 50 less likely to be killed by gun than in the US, and I don't think that we're living in situation of pre-crime here. 

Also, I do recreational shooting (it give me confidence, and I want to hunt later). We just don't keep our guns at home. We let them at the shooting range, where they are keep in safety. Some people take them at home, but you need a lot of authorization. Also, before learning recreational shooting, I had to show that I've never been to jail and was not crazy. Maybe it's a pre-crime, but I'm pretty happy that we don't let murderers and crazy people learn to shoot. 

I think you make a good point about learning how to use it. Because those things had an intended purpose when they were invented as weapons to kill. They obviously are used recreationally as well but they come with a Caution tag and you have to learn safety or else you could harm or kill someone if they are used recklessly. 

Maybe improper instruction (or lack of instruction entirely) could be a pre crime. Since you are omitting a vital part of understanding how to use a potentially lethal weapon. 

[NadaTeTurbe]

 I think that in a society where there's no or little gun control (like in the US), lack of education around gun is a kind of crime. Like, if you have gun in your house and that you never explain to your kids that it's a dangerous, deadly weapon, it's a serious fault. If you buy a gun and that you don't learn to use it, it's a serious fault as well. 

But to get back to the subject, I have find recreationnal shooting to be an important part of my healing after bullying and assault. I don't know why, I think it's the sensation of power, of force, that you are in control of something. I know of other assault victims who found confort in martial arts, me it was in shooting. I would advise people who have been assaulted, bullied, or who just lack in confidence or are afraid of violence, to give it a try. 

Edited September 28, 2015 by NadaTeTurbe

[Nihil Obstat]

 I think that in a society where there's no or little gun control (like in the US), lack of education around gun is a kind of crime. Like, if you have gun in your house and that you never explain to your kids that it's a dangerous, deadly weapon, it's a serious fault. If you buy a gun and that you don't learn to use it, it's a serious fault as well. 

Agreed. Dads need to teach their kids how to be safe around firearms, and when the time is right they should also teach their kids how to handle and shoot them safely and responsibly. Personally I think every child should learn these things just as a matter of course, but at the very least it must be done if there are guns in the house.
Not to mention that a parent is being seriously negligent if he stores his firearms in a manner that his children can access accidentally or irresponsibly. 

[Winchester]

So, you think that all the countries who have gun control and have a low crim rate should stop gun control ? Because I live in a country with a strong gun control, where I'm 50 less likely to be killed by gun than in the US, and I don't think that we're living in situation of pre-crime here. 

Also, I do recreational shooting (it give me confidence, and I want to hunt later). We just don't keep our guns at home. We let them at the shooting range, where they are keep in safety. Some people take them at home, but you need a lot of authorization. Also, before learning recreational shooting, I had to show that I've never been to jail and was not crazy. Maybe it's a pre-crime, but I'm pretty happy that we don't let murderers and crazy people learn to shoot. 

A crime has a victim. Purchasing a weapon is not a crime. Owning a weapon is not a crime. Gun control is enforced like every other legislative law: through force. Since neither the purchase nor possession of a weapon is an act of violence, the initial act of violence is the enforcement of the prohibition. I do not believe it is moral to initiate violence. I do not grant any exceptions to this rule, although most people who live by this rule (which really is most people, even yourself, I'd wager) grant an exception to the State. You perhaps are a utilitarian. I am not.

I'd wager that prior to gun control, your country was less violent overall than the US (which is a union of many countries, and contains many different cultures). There's also evidence that in countries with strict gun control, illegal ownership of weapons continues. I think the difference in violent crime is more cultural than legislative.

 

 

[CrossCuT]

This thread is a crime and Winchester is the victim.