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Ice_nine

should i vote to legalize it?

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little2add    474
little2add

keep it illegal, because:

1) It's extremely addictive for some people

2) This experiment hasn't worked out so well for Amsterdam

3) Marijuana is terrible for your mental health

4) Marijuana is terrible for your physical health

5) The drug decimates many people's lives

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Socrates    1,983
Socrates

I'll side-step the whole pot legalization debate the time being (I'm not a big fan of legalization, though I can see both sides of the argument.  As a constitutional conservative, I do believe legality should be decided at the individual state level, rather than federal.)

But I will say that the USCCB's opinions are not the final word on political issues, are not infallible, and we are not morally bound to agree with them on every single thing.  Frankly, I think the USCCB has its collective head up its collective posterior on a number of political issues.  (We can see, for instance, how beautifully "universal health care" is working out.)

As Pope Benedict has noted, not all political issues are the same as abortion and homosexual "marriage" - which are things that are inherently gravely evil in themselves always and in all cases.  Most political issues involve prudential judgement.

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little2add    474
little2add

Today’s pot is on average four to five times stronger than it was in the 1980s.  It can also get passed on to babies in high concentrations in breast milk.

Steven Simerville: I try to explain to them that even though you’re not smoking very much, the baby is getting seven times more than you’re taking and that there’s-- this drug has been shown to cause harm in developing brains.

Research suggests babies exposed to marijuana in utero may develop verbal, memory and behavioral problems during early childhood. 

source: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minutes-five-states-to-vote-on-recreational-pot/

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polskieserce    22
polskieserce

A lot of you are making the issue 10x more complicated than it is.  The bottom line is this: alcohol can be abused and cannabis can be abused.  Each of them will lead to serious health problems if used too much.  Just because some people can't handle it doesn't mean it should be illegal for the entire population to use.  I wouldn't use cannabis personally because of it's foul odor and it's side effect of making the user hungry.  However, I don't think it should be illegal for other people to use.

There are some people who use guns to go on shooting sprees.  That doesn't mean we should pass more gun control.  Some 16 year olds drive 80+mph on the highway when they first get their license.  That doesn't mean the driving age should be raised.  Some (many) college students drink until they can't walk in a straight line.  That doesn't mean the drinking age should be raised to 25.  Some people use common household chemicals to make explosives for terrorist attacks.  That doesn't mean the government should resort to draconian measures of monitoring peoples' purchases and spying on their digital activity.  Some people abuse welfare by purchasing drugs instead of food.  Socrates, that doesn't mean welfare should be abolished.

For every freedom/right/entitlement that exists, you are giving up some form of security.  Personally, I would prefer a society with lax rules for common people in regards to these types of issues.  Some people may not.  God is very heavy-handed with his expectations for humanity, but the Bible makes to mention of God imposing rules against mind altering substances.  Based on the events of the last supper, Jesus seems to be fine with the moderate use of drugs (alcohol is a drug too).

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Ice_nine    2,270
Ice_nine
23 hours ago, NadaTeTurbe said:

So beneficial to the thousand of people who are living in litteral slavery in Marroco to cultivate marijuana, so pooooor americans and europeans can feel better. 

I don't really appreciate the tone here, but I know English isn't your first language so maybe you're not trying to sound rude. But I'll play.

I don't think US Americans are getting their mj from Morocco. Maybe from Central America, sure (and that's problematic) but lots of the stuff is "homegrown." And if it were legalized it would take away the criminal element under which unjust labor practices exist. It wouldn't eradicate it of course.

Also with ANY product there are likely to be problems on the supply side with unjust labor practices. I wouldn't chastise someone for eating their fruits and veggies, because they are good for you, but they may have been harvested by migrant workers who are getting paid crappily and treated crappily. Also you know those cool laptops and smartphones we all use? Lots of the minerals needed to make these products can be found exclusively on the African continent. People, children even, risk life and limb to mine this stuff so they can scrape enough money together to survive. Does that make you feel good?

Of course, things are complicated. If a Westerner tried to shut down these operations out of compassion, they'd be reviled or killed. I remember Christopher Hitchens brother told a story about visiting some place in Africa where diamonds are mined or something and because he was a white guy the miners thought he was gonna shut it down. So they basically tried to chase him down and kill him. Because even though their treatment and working conditions were deplorable, it's all they had.

 

23 hours ago, Nihil Obstat said:

Based on the current political landscape in Canada, marijuana will be fully legalized next year. Initial projections indicate that it will be a massive industry, tens of billions of dollars when you account for secondary effects. Possibly even more money in it than alcohol. It will be interesting to see what happens, because there are enough similarities that we can draw some comparisons with the US. Savvy people should be watching closely in order to assess any social and medical effects of legalization.

I hear that very high quality marijuana is cultivated in the interior of BC in particular. I wonder if import/export is on the table right now, or if there is even any point to import from elsewhere.

So what would you do, right now, if your bishops urged you to vote against it?

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Nihil Obstat    9,205
Nihil Obstat
22 minutes ago, Ice_nine said:

 

 

So what would you do, right now, if your bishops urged you to vote against it?

Good question. I am not sure. I voted against Trudeau and the Liberals for other reasons, and marijuana will not be put to a vote regardless, so I have the luxury of not having to decide. :P 

I would certainly be willing to vote against legalization it I were convinced it was a morally deficient decision. I am very much in favour of medical marijuana. Recreational... Both sides leave me unconvinced at the moment, but I am leaning towards it not being as major as it is made out to be. 

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Anomaly    2,480
Anomaly
On 10/28/2016 at 8:46 PM, Ice_nine said:

I don't see the need to "battle" marijuana when it has been an overall beneficial thing in many peoples lives. Maybe that's part of the issue

 

My life experiences have been otherwise.  I've seen many people who's pot use has significantly affected their lives in a negative way.   That is anecdotal opinion.

The 60 minutes piece last night was very informative   It looked at Colorado and their legal recreational use.   Illegal grow operations have skyrocketed because they can fulfill the demand without following expensive government regulations          Hospitals are see a significant increase in THC related admissions (OD and otherwise).   There is a tremendous problems with infants being born with high levels of THC in their system   It is known that THC negatively affects the developing brain (up to mid twenties / early thirties).  Some communities are now voting to restrict distribution and grow centers.  The medical and law enforcement have no standard to know what levels of THC causes impairment, nor how to test for it since THC stays and builds up in tissue and is not quickly metabolized like alcohol.   

The Govenor of Colorado's advice for other states is to hold off for a few years and study the successes, failures, mistakes, and lessons that Colorado is learning now.

Personally, I strongly support legalization by Feds to allow thorough medical studies, some decriminalization to bring sanity to pot offenses, and caution before risking opening a possible Pandora box of unanticipated problems with legal recreational use.  That seems to be the socially responsible course of action for the greater good of society and not an onerous burden on individual's rights.   

 

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Ice_nine    2,270
Ice_nine

I always see Colorado brought up. Isn't pot legal in Washington too? I'm just wondering how its going there but too lazy to look right now. I think there's a South American country where its legal too. Ecuador maybe?

And anomaly, your proposal sounds fair and nice but the sort of incremental decriminalization and easing the laws so we can study the stuff is not going to happen in an insane and polarized world. You almost need to overcompensate because the laws against mj are THAT ridiculous and irrational to begin with.

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Anomaly    2,480
Anomaly

Extremism begets extremism.  

25 states allow medical marijuana as of June 28, 2016. 

4 allow recreational

We don't know enough long term effects and how to do it right, but are trying and learning.  What's so bad about waiting a bit to be more knowledgeable when it comes to recreational use?

Treatment is better than incarceration when it comes to drugs.  Just legalizing drugs to eliminate over incarceration seems stupid and shortsighted and not helpful to people with drug issues that may be ruining their lives. 

Edited by Anomaly

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Ice_nine    2,270
Ice_nine

I just don't see legalization as extremist. I know we've had different experiences that color our perception of things. That's fine. I don't have the energy to debate it

 

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NadaTeTurbe    1,748
NadaTeTurbe
21 hours ago, Ice_nine said:

I don't really appreciate the tone here, but I know English isn't your first language so maybe you're not trying to sound rude. But I'll play.

I don't think US Americans are getting their mj from Morocco. Maybe from Central America, sure (and that's problematic) but lots of the stuff is "homegrown." And if it were legalized it would take away the criminal element under which unjust labor practices exist. It wouldn't eradicate it of course.

Also with ANY product there are likely to be problems on the supply side with unjust labor practices. I wouldn't chastise someone for eating their fruits and veggies, because they are good for you, but they may have been harvested by migrant workers who are getting paid crappily and treated crappily. Also you know those cool laptops and smartphones we all use? Lots of the minerals needed to make these products can be found exclusively on the African continent. People, children even, risk life and limb to mine this stuff so they can scrape enough money together to survive. Does that make you feel good?

Of course, things are complicated. If a Westerner tried to shut down these operations out of compassion, they'd be reviled or killed. I remember Christopher Hitchens brother told a story about visiting some place in Africa where diamonds are mined or something and because he was a white guy the miners thought he was gonna shut it down. So they basically tried to chase him down and kill him. Because even though their treatment and working conditions were deplorable, it's all they had.

 

So what would you do, right now, if your bishops urged you to vote against it?

Yes, I did not mean it in a agressive way, but reading it again, it sounds like it, sorry. 

It just drive me crazy, because I'm seeing right now many life destroyed by marijuana. My sister was an addict. She's not anymore, but she have a shorter attention span, facial disfigurement, and will have trouble to keep a work in the future. Same thing for many friends. I used to smoke when i was in high school - we even tried to grow marijuana in our room when I was in boarding school. Some of my friends who smoked with me became nearly, when I have nothing. 

If my bishop urged me to vote against it, I would vote against it. Without thinking twice. 

The teaching of the Church on marijuana is the following : 

The use of drugs inflicts very grave damage on human health and life. Their use, except on strictly therapeutic grounds, is a grave offense. Clandestine production of and trafficking in drugs are scandalous practices. They constitute direct co-operation in evil, since they encourage people to practices gravely contrary to the moral law." (§2291)

Using marijuana is a mortal sin according to most priest that I know. Would you vote to legalize a mortal (or venial) sin ? 

Btw, it's not only the bishops. It's also the Pope : 

While self-proclaimed practicing Catholic Justin Trudeau publicly called for the legalization of marijuana this week, in another hemisphere Pope Francis took an a unequivocal stand against the “liberalization of drug use.” https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/pope-francis-slams-liberalization-of-drug-use-as-catholic-trudeau-campaigns

“The scourge of drug use continues to spread inexorably, fed by a deplorable commerce which transcends national and continental borders,” he said. “Attempts, however limited, to legalize so-called ‘recreational drugs,’ are not only highly questionable from a legislative standpoint, but they fail to produce the desired effects,” the pope said. http://www.thecannabist.co/2016/07/28/italy-recreational-marijuana-pope-francis/59658/ 

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Josh    971
Josh
On Monday, November 28, 2016 at 11:08 AM, Josh said:

Smoke weed everyday (Nate Dogg Voice)

 

Rip Nate Dogg. Anyone under 18/21 should be completely sober 24/7 and if an adult is wise they will do the same thing. But the fact that a lot of people (especially minorities) are in prison for a plant that God called very good on the first page of the Bible is horrible. Here's a good 5 minute video on this https://youtu.be/CJlqsdezhhk

 

Edited by Josh

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dominicansoul    4,451
dominicansoul

I think marijuana has great uses for health problems.  And Bishops can have lots of opinions, you don't have to agree with them all.

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vee    4,728
vee
10 minutes ago, dominicansoul said:

I think marijuana has great uses for health problems.  And Bishops can have lots of opinions, you don't have to agree with them all.

Maybe you should get a prescription.  

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dominicansoul    4,451
dominicansoul

Its not like i haven't looked into it.  My chronic nerve pain drives me to insanity sometimes...

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Benedictus    364
Benedictus

I don't believe drug possession should be a punishment issue, but a rehabilitative and social one. There's many saying certain drugs should be tested and used for medical use if there's benefits, which seems reasonable too.

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little2add    474
little2add

Recreational drug use often leads to adiction, abuse and ultimately untimely death.   Legalization might just escalate the problem 

Pot is a gateway drug

For some people

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havok579257    259
havok579257
On 4/8/2017 at 8:28 PM, Benedictus said:

I don't believe drug possession should be a punishment issue, but a rehabilitative and social one. There's many saying certain drugs should be tested and used for medical use if there's benefits, which seems reasonable too.

so don't punish the drug dealers who feed these drugs into society?

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cmealer    2
cmealer
On 12/1/2016 at 10:04 AM, Josh said:

a plant that God called very good on the first page of the Bible

He also called hemlock very good, but I have no intention of consuming that one either. 

 

 

On 4/8/2017 at 8:28 PM, Benedictus said:

 

I don't believe drug possession should be a punishment issue, but a rehabilitative and social one.

 

There are likely rehabilitative elements that need to be pursued, but punishment both satisfies justice and is intended to assist them by allowing them to act the right way to at least avoid punishment if they can't do it for a better reason. 

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