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havok579257

Should health insurance/coveragr be a right?

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dairygirl4u2c    62
dairygirl4u2c
7 hours ago, little2add said:

In other words, Dairy you could say; It's not broke, nothing to fix.  

Its a fact that nurse's doctors and the other medical specialist earn there pay providing  services.   The more the government try's to regulate the worst it is going to be

 

 

1 hour ago, Anomaly said:

Still, thinking the having the Federal Government running all aspects of healthcare as single payer might be problematic is shockingly ignorant.  The Government promised we can keep our Doctors, keep our coverage if we liked it, and would save thousands.  No need for ignorant concern here.   Smarter people got this.

Like a balloon, I have no real point. 


if you guys could provide concrete examples, maybe people would listen to you, for why single payer is so bad. all i see is ignorance fear greed and pure ideology. obviously no system is perfect but why is that a reason to force us to live with a broken system?

maybe i should be more open minded about calling opposition to single payer stupid given intelligent people oppose it, some. but i still contend smart people make stupid decisions, and at any rate, it's close minded.  if all you have is an ideology an no concrete issues with it, how is that so morally superior? there's something to be said about sticking to your principles, but there's more to be said about being open minded to different ways of doing things. god forbid liberals come up with a good idea. maybe ideologically you oppose letting some people pay ten percent of their income on healthcare while others spend more. maybe you recongize that free loaders exist and if it's tax payer funded, some will get away with being lazy. but can't you be pragmatic and recognize you aren't the only one with reasonable views? i see a flat rate of taxes as immoral, but if it meant we had decent healthcare i'd just live with it.
most single payer countries have better health, healtcare quality, it's cheaper, and their waittimes are shorter. how about some pragmaticism?  all the learned poeople i see remaining against it is just ideology and a shallow fear of acknowleding decent views, and for politicians it's fear of looking like a liberal.

here is what an open minded conservative sounds like...

Article: "Why I [a right leaning economic libertarian] Prefer French Healthcare"

" For a dozen years now I’ve led a dual life, spending more than 90 percent of my time and money in the U.S. while receiving 90 percent of my health care in my wife’s native France. On a personal level the comparison is no contest: I’ll take the French experience any day. ObamaCare opponents often warn that a new system will lead to long waiting times, mountains of paperwork, and less choice among doctors. Yet on all three of those counts the French system is significantly better, not worse, than what the U.S. has now. "

Edited by dairygirl4u2c

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little2add    475
little2add
36 minutes ago, dairygirl4u2c said:

dual life, spending more than 90 percent of my time and money in the U.S. while receiving 90 percent of my health care

 Do you contribute to France for your health care?   Do you think it's ethical to use the health care of another country, without contributing ?

I work hard for my money and pay an monthly insurance premium.     My family and I are well taken care of.  

 Don't you think it's odd that  Since the creation of Obama care insurance companies in the United States are making record profits and claiming that they cannot afford to participate in Obama care.  

 Obama care is a disaster and I want no part of it 

 

 

Edited by little2add

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dairygirl4u2c    62
dairygirl4u2c

well we're not really talking bout obamacare right now in this thread, but duly noted.

also for all the ideology i see without specific problems against single payer etc, such as you just gave, i kinda want a response to how you approach...
" there's something to be said about sticking to your principles, but there's more to be said about being open minded to different ways of doing things. "

i should add, if it meant we got something like single payer or an improved healthcare for all kind of thing, i wouldn't mind and would encourage a conservative spin to it to a degree. that's not really surprising though to me, cause while i come off as liberal many times, im actually more fiscally conservative than the average person. and there's always room for improvement. that even means id be okay with a lot of things i dont like as a compromise. i dont see a spirit of compromise or acknowledging when the other side is doing things good, from the conservatives here.

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Anomaly    2,480
Anomaly
52 minutes ago, dairygirl4u2c said:

 


if you guys could provide concrete examples, maybe people would listen to you, for why single payer is so bad. all i see is ignorance fear greed and pure ideology. obviously no system is perfect but why is that a reason to force us to live with a broken system?

maybe i should be more open minded about calling opposition to single payer stupid given intelligent people oppose it, some. but i still contend smart people make stupid decisions, and at any rate, it's close minded.  if all you have is an ideology an no concrete issues with it, how is that so morally superior? there's something to be said about sticking to your principles, but there's more to be said about being open minded to different ways of doing things. god forbid liberals come up with a good idea. maybe ideologically you oppose letting some people pay ten percent of their income on healthcare while others spend more. maybe you recongize that free loaders exist and if it's tax payer funded, some will get away with being lazy. but can't you be pragmatic and recognize you aren't the only one with reasonable views? i see a flat rate of taxes as immoral, but if it meant we had decent healthcare i'd just live with it.
most single payer countries have better health, healtcare quality, it's cheaper, and their waittimes are shorter. how about some pragmaticism?  all the learned poeople i see remaining against it is just ideology and a shallow fear of acknowleding decent views, and for politicians it's fear of looking like a liberal.

here is what an open minded conservative sounds like...

Article: "Why I [a right leaning economic libertarian] Prefer French Healthcare"

" For a dozen years now I’ve led a dual life, spending more than 90 percent of my time and money in the U.S. while receiving 90 percent of my health care in my wife’s native France. On a personal level the comparison is no contest: I’ll take the French experience any day. ObamaCare opponents often warn that a new system will lead to long waiting times, mountains of paperwork, and less choice among doctors. Yet on all three of those counts the French system is significantly better, not worse, than what the U.S. has now. "

Please google "what is wrong with single payer healthcare ".   Don't trust what I say. 

Half my family live in the U.K.   There are some things that are better, but wait times and access to specialists is horrendous for many.   There is also the fact they started their NHC after the war II when there was not the developmed healthcare system the US has now.  Not the same institutions to change. They were able to build cost effectively as medical knowledge developed. There are somepractical realities to deal with now in the US.  Just the difference in how Doctors are trained and paid is a huge issue.   

I only respond on a phone and don't have the desire to educate you on what you can find out for yourself.  Yes, things need changing in the US, but politicians aren't honest enough and people aren't patient enough to consider all the aspects and issues.  

What we have now is something rammed through by one political party and our next choice is change that can be rammed through by another political party.    The first plan was not what was promised, and I doubt the second will be either. 

 

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little2add    475
little2add
51 minutes ago, dairygirl4u2c said:

not really talking bout obamacare

what are you talking about then

obamacare is government subsidized healthcare.  

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dairygirl4u2c    62
dairygirl4u2c
1 hour ago, Anomaly said:

Please google "what is wrong with single payer healthcare ".   Don't trust what I say. 

Half my family live in the U.K.   There are some things that are better, but wait times and access to specialists is horrendous for many.   There is also the fact they started their NHC after the war II when there was not the developmed healthcare system the US has now.  Not the same institutions to change. They were able to build cost effectively as medical knowledge developed. There are somepractical realities to deal with now in the US.  Just the difference in how Doctors are trained and paid is a huge issue.   

I only respond on a phone and don't have the desire to educate you on what you can find out for yourself.  Yes, things need changing in the US, but politicians aren't honest enough and people aren't patient enough to consider all the aspects and issues.  

What we have now is something rammed through by one political party and our next choice is change that can be rammed through by another political party.    The first plan was not what was promised, and I doubt the second will be either. 

 

well at least you acknowledge the republican plan isn't all that great. i'd be curious of how you would structure a plan, if you were interested in getting past your phone and spending more time on the issue. maybe you aren't as bad as your style was suggesting. i could give a 'conservative' spin or two that i wouldn't mind, cause i agree obamacare is a problem and we have to get costs down. i also don't know what there is for me to learn... yes some countries have worse wait times, but most are better than we are. i cited the link for that. and yes there's an issue with doctor salary, but don't count me as someone too sympathetic to a doctor making over two hundred k a year here on average when they have a monopoly from limiting the supply of doctors. yes some republican free market magic isn't unwarranted here at all. the only thing i see is that you mentioned that we are a developed country and they weren't, which is a good point, but i dont think it would be as big a barrier as you must think it is. this point could be developed more by either of us.
anyways, thanks for taking the time to reply

trust me, i've googled all the ways i could be wrong on this probably more than ive googled how i'm right. that's how i'm so informed on the issue. a book i just found out about is called 'american sickness', how big business has taken over our healthcare debate, and it also has a lot of basic information anyone should know about government healthcare and healthcare in general. maybe you might be interested in taking a look see too.

https://www.google.com/#q=american+sickness+

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dairygirl4u2c    62
dairygirl4u2c

i might be wrong, but i remember thinking in the UK it is literally socialized medicine, doctors ran by the government.... which is why the VA has such problems too, too much dysfunctional goernment. but all the reasons i gave for why the VA isn't good are the reasons the UK isn't a good country to use as a standard bearer.  if i had to stick my neck out, id pick top ranked france as more single payer type, though not fullly, or switzerland which is more like obamacare but actually affordable. but like i said, on wait times etc, there's an array of countries we can hold up that are better than the usa. (and yes they all involve goernment in healthcare. it's not possible to find a developed country that isn't like that, that is successful. we are alone there.

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Anomaly    2,480
Anomaly

@dairygirl4u2c  

google and read about Dr Dale Klein, who is the whistleblower on the VA.  

After many months, despite high profile news coverage, congress getting involved, lawyers, etc., things are still bad at the VA, and his life is ruined, because he told about the mismanagement that is killing people.   

Not that private industry are always saints, but government run isn't necessarily better and can be worse.  

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dairygirl4u2c    62
dairygirl4u2c

I don't know why it's worth mentioning the VA. as ive pointed out numerous times, the VA is a government ran hospital that limits the choice of veterans of doctors etc. in a single payer system, or something like Switzerland which is like an affordable Obamacare system, you have unlimited choice of doctors, and the hospital is ran by the private sector.... it's just publically funded. to my knowledge, the VA is like how the UK is ran, so that country isn't much relevant either to what people actually argue

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Anomaly    2,480
Anomaly

Maybe not you, but most posters supporting O'care think the next logical step is single payer, or the fix is more government control.   The issue with both is once the Government is deeply involved, it's almost impossible to change or fix.  

The fundamental issue, I think, is to what extent is Healthcare a moral entitlement.  Basic care, or every option possible?  

If every option possible, then:

how are the limited resources distributed?

how do you make people responsible for their health and allow the to experience the consequences of their choices?

how do you differentiate between people who make bad choices and people who had no choices?

how do you prioritize needs above wants?

Besides those questions, there is the cost.  The US spends much more per person and are less healthy than other nations according to many studies.  O'care is not cheaper or better, it just dumps more $ into a flawed system. 

 I think the fundamental logic flaw is we think we can spend money to fix anything.  We expect a pill or treatment first, before eating and exercising as we should.  We also have layers of regulation and complications in our entire system that is expensive.  Studies show the average GEneral Practice Doctor requires 2.3 non-clinical support staff for clerical duties.   That's not going to be fixed with Government control. 

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Nihil Obstat    9,205
Nihil Obstat
8 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

Besides those questions, there is the cost.  The US spends much more per person and are less healthy than other nations according to many studies.  O'care is not cheaper or better, it just dumps more $ into a flawed system. 

 

Bingo. Obamacare or no Obamacare, the health care system in the US is a complete mess. Whether or not a single payer system would help, there is no sense in which it is in and of itself a complete solution. Such a solution simply does not exist, as far as the current state of health care economics is concerned.

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CatherineM    6,165
CatherineM

The infrastructure in the US isn't designed as a single payer system. There's practically an MRI on every corner there. In Canada, there are fewer so they have waiting lists. I get around waiting lists by being in the last minute cancellations list. Got my yearly MRI last year on Canada Day. Guess someone wanted to go to a party instead. 

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dairygirl4u2c    62
dairygirl4u2c

simply lamenting the government though seems to be missing the point. every other developed country but us does healthcare a lot better than we do, at least cheaper and usually better quality and outcomes. including usually less wait times. what common theme unites these countries? the government plays a crucial role. i'm sometimes skeptical if our government is inherently incompetent unlike all the others, but I don't see why we cant do something decent if everyone else does. there's no precedent to say 'get the government out of healthcare' and it's hard to see how that could work successfully, what that'd look like. with that said, I don't think the republican plan is so bad, cause if we keep what we have, we need to at least try to get costs under control. I doubt it'd solve the problem of a wreck of a healthcare system though.

Edited by dairygirl4u2c

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dairygirl4u2c    62
dairygirl4u2c

maybe the best way to respect that we have a developed system while others formed their healthcare from scratch, is just to implement a public option. then you could do it Obamacare wway or the trumpcare way, but whatever way you do it, peope have the option for a government funded system. of course to be like the other countries it'd have to have the cost saving controls of both Medicaid, and medicare, in one system. along with themes from the republican healthcare bill. this way most people who have insurance thorugh an employer and don't want their boat rocked can keep what they have, but most sane people would opt for the government plan. our system isn't so terrible other than the cost being out of control anyway.

of course maybe if you are in insurance you can get a tax credit or something compared to if you aren't, so that people don't get taxed for healthcare they don't use, and billed. or they could do it like medicare and have premiums etc. tehre's many ways to do it.

I can see the criticism already that if the government gets involved it'd have an unfair and subsidized advantage over insurance companies. that's partly the point. as long as the government can do it competently like every other country that'd be the point..... let people see what really works and what doesn't.

Edited by dairygirl4u2c

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Anomaly    2,480
Anomaly

I think it is a fundamental flaw in the US Government and the US Healthcare System.  

If we just get the Government to run it, you get the VA mess.

If we do nothing, it would be what we had ten years ago, constantly rising costs that made people decide to "do something " that gave us Obama Care that is much more expensive and we didn't keep our plans and doctors. 

I don't think Trump Care will fix it, but it's marginally a small fix to OCare, but not a fundamental fix.  

If the US spends more per person and we have 30,000,000 uninsured, why am I, middle aged and barely middle class, paying $10,000 a year, employer matching $8,000 with $13,500 deductible.  Twice what I used to pay with almost 10 times the deductible.   We paid out over $12,000 for gall bladder surgery last year with two days in the hospital with the insurance.  

Something is wrong with the current Government Obamacare "fix" where I can't afford the insurance and can't afford to be sick.  I'm not a special case.  I'm in the same boat as my socio-economic peers.  

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Nihil Obstat    9,205
Nihil Obstat

The US government actually funds health care at a greater proportion of GDP than many countries that have single payer or more directly subsidised systems.

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dairygirl4u2c    62
dairygirl4u2c

it's not talked about much, including by me cause I don't want to be viewed as a commie, but the main reason other countries spend so much less is because I think nearly all of the major ones regulate costs. that includes how places like Switzerland is able to have Obamacare like system that is actually affordable. people don't like the idea of limiting doctor income, or whathave you, but I don't have much sympathathy that doesn't abide by the free market rules the rest of us do and limit the supply of doctors. but we don't even have to limit their income, there's much to limit when it comes to the supply side of healthcare.  or take pharma, they have a market that doesn't abide by the free market rules the rest of the world does, so regulate them. or MRIs or whatever. and it shouldn't be so much cheaper to just to go other countries to have surgery, it should be regulated here more too.

i'm curious what solutions all you guys have who don't like single payer, or public options, or government involvement in healthcare. all I see is a bunch of criticism but no solutions. if single payer hybrids are best, instead of just saying "no system is perfect" "it's not a panacea" just admit it. don't be like the republicans who became just a party of 'no', always being about what they are against instead of what they are for. (the republican plan is decent but it's still not gonna solve much. it will basically ration on ability to pay and amount of use

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dairygirl4u2c    62
dairygirl4u2c

"I think it is a fundamental flaw in the US Government and the US Healthcare System."

i'm curious what someone who is against the government in healthcare would think is the problem of why we cant provide affordable healthcare that is better than our current system, but most other countries can.

(and the VA and single payer are two completely different things, it's not an either or situation of all government control v none)

part of it is because they don't let more free market prevail on things like doctor supply but it's much bigger than that.

the only thing I can see is the republicans wouldn't dare regulate costs, and the democrats insist on giving people heathcare, so you basically have a blank check for a lot of things, competing with a bloated insurance company driving prices up further. so notice I put most blame on the republicans. maybe we have a tradition that is more anti government than others, I don't know.

the only thing I can see an honest republican saying is they think its the democrats fault, cause healthcare should be rationed a lot more based on ability to pay. and maybe it's a semi humane view, like not everything can be covered and it cant be an open checkbook, maybe a basic care kind of thing.

i'm actually more cynical than I put on, cause given the republicans are so much against regulating and dems are for giving care, our single payer system might not be so cheap, but just an open checkbook on inflated costs.

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Nihil Obstat    9,205
Nihil Obstat

I rather like the Singaporean system. I studied it in reasonable detail. It works, generally speaking. It has issues of its own. It is certainly not free and universal in an absolute sense. In some ways it can be a bit spartan. It is also, IMO suited particularly for a somewhat more authoritarian government in a very small geographical area. It might not be replicable in a western democracy.

The Canadian system has worked as intended for me thus far. I have an autoimmune disorder which requires specialist care. It has not bankrupted anybody in my family and I am currently healthy.

Edited by Nihil Obstat

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