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PhuturePriest

Dubia Round Two -- Formal Correction on Horizon?

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PhuturePriest

The authors of the Dubia from last year have written once again to the Holy Father -- and have once again (so far) been ignored.

The letter begins with a respectful yet undeniably solemn tone:

Quote

“Most Holy Father,

It is with a certain trepidation that I address myself to Your Holiness, during these days of the Easter season. I do so on behalf of the Most Eminent Cardinals: Walter Brandmüller, Raymond L. Burke, Joachim Meisner, and myself.

We wish to begin by renewing our absolute dedication and our unconditional love for the Chair of Peter and for Your august person, in whom we recognize the Successor of Peter and the Vicar of Jesus: the “sweet Christ on earth,” as Saint Catherine of Siena was fond of saying. We do not share in the slightest the position of those who consider the See of Peter vacant, nor of those who want to attribute to others the indivisible responsibility of the Petrine munus. We are moved solely by the awareness of the grave responsibility arising from the munus of cardinals: to be advisers of the Successor of Peter in his sovereign ministry. And from the Sacrament of the Episcopate, which “has placed us as bishops to pasture the Church, which He has acquired with his blood” (Acts 20:28).

On September 19, 2016 we delivered to Your Holiness and to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith five dubia, asking You to resolve uncertainties and to bring clarity on some points of the post-synodal Apostolic Exhortation, Amoris Laetitia.

Not having received any response from Your Holiness, we have reached the decision to ask You, respectfully and humbly, for an Audience, together if Your Holiness would like. We attach, as is the practice, an Audience Sheet in which we present the two points we wish to discuss with you.

In particular, the crucial point of the letter occurs when the Cardinals point to a silent crisis occurring before us that will have dramatic consequences if left unchecked:

Quote

A year has now gone by since the publication of Amoris Laetitia. During this time, interpretations of some objectively ambiguous passages of the post-synodal Exhortation have publicly been given that are not divergent from, but contrary to, the permanent Magisterium of the Church. Despite the fact that the Prefect of the Doctrine of the Faith has repeatedly declared that the doctrine of the Church has not changed, numerous statements have appeared from individual Bishops, Cardinals, and even Episcopal Conferences, approving what the Magisterium of the Church has never approved. Not only access to the Holy Eucharist for those who objectively and publicly live in a situation of grave sin, and intend to remain in it, but also a conception of moral conscience contrary to the Tradition of the Church. And so it is happening — how painful it is to see this! — that what is sin in Poland is good in Germany, that what is prohibited in the archdiocese of Philadelphia is permitted in Malta. And so on.

See the full letter here and Edward Pentin's commentary on it here.

If the Holy Father does not respond to this request for an audience (and it has already been over a month since he received it) I fear what the consequences may be. This is quite probably the last chance the cardinals are giving him before issuing the formal correction they promised to give last time if no response was ever given. That they are once again pressing the issue and this time requesting a personal visit shows that they are getting serious. We need to pray and sacrifice for Pope Francis and Holy Mother Church.

Edited by PhuturePriest

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PhuturePriest

I learned about Pentin when I was in Detroit. He has since become one of my favorite reporters. His willingness to report things which trouble him and he would clearly rather not report give him a lot of credibility in my eyes.

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Luigi
3 hours ago, Era Might said:

Correction for what?

"Amoris Laetitia," Francis' papal exhortation on love in the family. Some people disagree with some points of it, or the way the points of it are being interpreted and applied.

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Era Might
1 hour ago, Luigi said:

"Amoris Laetitia," Francis' papal exhortation on love in the family. Some people disagree with some points of it, or the way the points of it are being interpreted and applied.

Like what?

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Era Might
14 minutes ago, Nihil Obstat said:

Eh. Skimming through it looks like a bunch of scholastic verbiage. Probably not half as edifying as Amoris Laetitae itself.

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KnightofChrist

Bruh if the 'great majority of Catholic marriages are invalid' but 'cohabitating couples' can have “real marriage” does that mean invalid Catholic marriages can be valid because they are invalid??? 

2 hours ago, Era Might said:

Eh. Skimming through it looks like a bunch of scholastic verbiage. Probably not half as edifying as Amoris Laetitae itself.

When four cardinals write but they get no reply that's Amoris!

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Era Might
10 hours ago, KnightofChrist said:

When four cardinals write but they get no reply that's Amoris!

Well played, sir lol.

Part of the problem may be they sound like buffoons. I know they're professional clerics, but, I mean, they sound so full of themselves, like a reply or lack of a reply is going to change the course of world history. If they're going to "correct" the Pope at least do it like men. Talk like St. Paul: I opposed Peter to his face because he stood condemned. All this "sweet Christ on earth" piousness, please...especially with this Pope.

Also, silence can be a reply.

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Jack4
1 hour ago, Era Might said:

they sound so full of themselves

So.... the problem is that they "sound" so full of themselves? 

"Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned"

1 hour ago, Era Might said:

If they're going to "correct" the Pope at least do it like men... All this "sweet Christ on earth" piousness, please...especially with this Pope.

Gaudium et spes: "Respect and love ought to be extended also to those who think or act differently than we do in social, political and even religious matters. In fact, the more deeply we come to understand their ways of thinking through such courtesy and love, the more easily will we be able to enter into dialogue with them.

This love and good will, to be sure, must in no way render us indifferent to truth and goodness. Indeed love itself impels the disciples of Christ to speak the saving truth to all men. But it is necessary to distinguish between error, which always merits repudiation, and the person in error, who never loses the dignity of being a person even when he is flawed by false or inadequate religious notions. God alone is the judge and searcher of hearts, for that reason He forbids us to make judgments about the internal guilt of anyone."

 

1 hour ago, Era Might said:

like a reply or lack of a reply is going to change the course of world history

Homo-ouisios, homoi-ouisios.

1 hour ago, Era Might said:

Part of the problem may be they sound like buffoons.

In all politeness, sir, please do not use this type of rhetoric. 

1 hour ago, Era Might said:

All this "sweet Christ on earth" piousness

This is because they were accused of being enemies of the Pope and denying his authority 

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Cam42

So, here's my take.  You can leave it if you like, but it's pretty spot on....

Until the Holy Father has the ball taken from him, it is in his court and he clearly doesn't want to play ball.  So, there is one option and one option only to take.

The Cardinals (and other bishops) must stand up and say ex cathedra episcopi, by the grace of God and in union with the Ordinary Magiserium and in union with the Petrine office (using that particular language), we acclaim, acknowledge and affirm that the consistent 2000 year teaching on marriage is upheld and known to be infallible.  We are asking the Holy Father to clarify his statements regarding marriage in Amoris Latetitia, so that the faithful can better understand the continuity of the Sacrament.

That takes the ball out of the Holy Father's hands and places in the court of the bishops.   Now, before anyone gets all what is "ex cathedra episcopi, you need to read Lumen Gentium and come to an understanding of what authentic collegiality is in the mind of the Church.  It is NOT simply the formation of episcopal conferences and committees....It is actually defined in Lumen Gentium.

If you would like to discuss the ramifications of Amoris, I'm game....because there are 3 big issues....but that needs to be another thread.

Peace out.

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PhuturePriest
On 6/21/2017 at 0:23 PM, Cam42 said:

So, here's my take.  You can leave it if you like, but it's pretty spot on....

Until the Holy Father has the ball taken from him, it is in his court and he clearly doesn't want to play ball.  So, there is one option and one option only to take.

The Cardinals (and other bishops) must stand up and say ex cathedra episcopi, by the grace of God and in union with the Ordinary Magiserium and in union with the Petrine office (using that particular language), we acclaim, acknowledge and affirm that the consistent 2000 year teaching on marriage is upheld and known to be infallible.  We are asking the Holy Father to clarify his statements regarding marriage in Amoris Latetitia, so that the faithful can better understand the continuity of the Sacrament.

That takes the ball out of the Holy Father's hands and places in the court of the bishops.   Now, before anyone gets all what is "ex cathedra episcopi, you need to read Lumen Gentium and come to an understanding of what authentic collegiality is in the mind of the Church.  It is NOT simply the formation of episcopal conferences and committees....It is actually defined in Lumen Gentium.

If you would like to discuss the ramifications of Amoris, I'm game....because there are 3 big issues....but that needs to be another thread.

Peace out.

I would agree that this is what they need to do. I think, according to what Burke has hinted at, this is what they plan to do. My belief is that this second letter was simply their last attempt at addressing this issue without being too upfront and combative. Given that they have now been ignored twice, it is quite likely we will see something quite like what you outlined above in the near future. Probably within this year, I would wager.

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KnightofChrist
On 6/21/2017 at 11:54 AM, Era Might said:

Well played, sir lol.

Part of the problem may be they sound like buffoons. I know they're professional clerics, but, I mean, they sound so full of themselves, like a reply or lack of a reply is going to change the course of world history. If they're going to "correct" the Pope at least do it like men. Talk like St. Paul: I opposed Peter to his face because he stood condemned. All this "sweet Christ on earth" piousness, please...especially with this Pope.

Also, silence can be a reply.

Cardinals humbly ask for a face to face meeting but Pope refuses to meet them.

Era: The Cardinals are a bunch of stupid, smelly apes full of their own crapulence, who aren't man enough to correct Francis to his face.

 

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PhuturePriest

Should the cardinals make good on their promise with a formal correction of Amoris Laetitia, what do you guys believe will be the repercussions?

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allegra

So, why don't they just show up together at a regular Wednesday General Papal Audience? :think:

Every (!) cardinal or bishop present inevitably gets the occasion for a papal "baciamano" (handshake) after the audience, and some chat even for minutes with him. There's always a long line, and many of those lining up would most probably never be granted a formal private audience or get to see the Holy Father otherwise (e.g. auxiliary bishops accompanying a youth group and the like).

 

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Era Might
10 hours ago, KnightofChrist said:

Cardinals humbly ask for a face to face meeting but Pope refuses to meet them.

Era: The Cardinals are a bunch of stupid, smelly apes full of their own crapulence, who aren't man enough to correct Francis to his face.

 

It's all how you spin the story.

Pope issues letter on love and family.

Cardinals: The gates of hell are collapsing, we are going to correct you!

1 hour ago, PhuturePriest said:

Should the cardinals make good on their promise with a formal correction of Amoris Laetitia, what do you guys believe will be the repercussions?

3. Since “time is greater than space”, I would make it clear that not all discussions of doctrinal, moral or pastoral issues need to be settled by interventions of the magisterium. Unity of teaching and practice is certainly necessary in the Church, but this does not preclude various ways of interpreting some aspects of that teaching or drawing certain consequences from it. This will always be the case as the Spirit guides us towards the entire truth (cf. Jn 16:13), until he leads us fully into the mystery of Christ and enables us to see all things as he does. Each country or region, moreover, can seek solutions better suited to its culture and sensitive to its traditions and local needs. For “cultures are in fact quite diverse and every general principle… needs to be inculturated, if it is to be respected and applied”.

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Jack4
18 minutes ago, Era Might said:

It's all how you spin the story.

Pope John speaks on eternal life. 

Will it be "Cardinals: The gates of hell are collapsing, we are going to correct you!"?

1 hour ago, PhuturePriest said:

Should the cardinals make good on their promise with a formal correction of Amoris Laetitia, what do you guys believe will be the repercussions?

I fear that the actual fraternal correction will be ignored, just as the actual dubia were ignored; I fear that there will be vitriol toward the four Cardinals for the fraternal correction, just as there was vitriol toward the four Cardinals for the dubia.  

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