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Donald Trump and Racism

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Era Might    1,537
Era Might
47 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

I actually live in the Deep South. There is a strong defensiveness against Northeners/Yankees who think the average/majority of southerners are ignorant peasants that need Yankee supervision.   There will always elitists that know better than the populi.  That isn't racist, that's arrogance and identity politics that is often exploited by both sides.

Locally, we are debating the placement and removal of these monuments.  Just as many justifiably see them as remnants of institutionalized race oppression, others see them as rebellious symbols against cultural oppression by dismissive elites.   Evil power mongers fan conflict into hate and votes, risking the crowding out of respectfully airing opinions, jeopardizing understanding the differences, and preventing coming to a rational and cooperative resolution. 

I'm in the deepest of the Deep South (Louisiana), but have also lived in the geographical deep south (South Florida). I'm a Northener, too, so come here from an outside perspective, but I have personal experience in both worlds. The funny thing about here in the real Deep South...friendliest people you'll ever meet. I love them, just on that personal level. But behind the charm and facade, it's really scary how much you can see the Old South still standing. Where I live, you literally still have the city divided by train tracks...once you cross the "other side of the tracks," it's all black, on the other side, all white. In South Florida, it's a little different because Miami is a different country, but once you head north into Broward, you cross into another world, a whiter world and the lines are more clearly drawn. And even in Miami, the racial lines are clearly drawn. There are three Miamis: white, black, and Latin. But even the Latins are segregated, you have white Cubans and black Cubans, and then you have the Central Americans who are Indians and disliked by white Latins.

Here in New Orleans they started removing the Confederate monuments a few months ago, there was tension but it didn't erupt like Charlottesville, maybe because this is a black city. No, I don't think Southerners are ignorant peasants. Obviously, the South has changed a lot, and you have different areas of the Deep South. Atlanta is a very modern city, and also a strongly black city (MLK was from Atlanta).

Here in the South, it's funny that nationalism has been used to elect Trump, because what makes them so afraid is precisely the national idea. They are afraid of national identity, of citizenship. They want to keep the old manners where blacks and whites lived in a loosely defined co-existence, though everyone knew where the lines were drawn. But, since the Civil Rights movement, now you have a new nation where citizenship isn't just an idea but a reality.

None of this is new. I can't recommend enough, if anyone is really interested in American history and race, a 3-volume history by Taylor Branch. It's the definitive history of "America in the King years 1954-1968." This was when the deep south was REALLY the deep south. When Bob Moses waded into Mississippi to educate blacks on their rights as citizens and get them to register as voters, he was wading into the depths of hell. No way Southerners in Mississippi were allowing blacks to be educated voters. This was a time of real terrorism in America, when you were lynched for even being associated with civil rights, for attending a voter education class, for example. There was a big crisis because the federal government had to protect the rights of black citizens in the South, but it also had to work through the entrenched white supremacy system of segregation. Nominally, blacks were free citizens, but everyone knew what the reality was.

All this bullcrap about "bringing the country together" and saluting the flag, it's all well and good on TV, but there is a real world in America that you only discover when you've lived in it. What makes the "white working class" afraid is that the civil rights movement created a true citizenship. They're afraid of "the north" and the "coasts" because those are urban places. I'm from Boston. I always laugh because whenever Boston comes up in the news, it's supposedly the most racist country in America. Boston is a cosmopolitan city...yes, it had ethnic divisions and racism, but the South is a whole other beast. Here, the racism comes with a smile and a parade. I'm moving to the Southwest next week...I've had enough of this godforsaken place. And like I said, they really are the nicest people you'll ever meet. But come to New Orleans if you want to see the backward racial mess that was the Confederacy, the Old South, the Deep South, whatever you want to call it...this is where slavemasters would threaten to send you if you were a bad slave...sell you down the river, down the Mississippi. I have nothing against anyone here, but this is one screwed up place.

Edited by Era Might

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Anomaly    2,480
Anomaly

Nawlins is a different world. One of my sisters attended Loyola and her husband attended Tulane.  The lived there after graduation for more than ten years.   I visited a lot.  Notably, my most racist family members are from Illinois.  

There are a lot of opinions and perspectives.  NO peacefully removed many of their monuments because there was open public debate, and maybe, after Katrina, there is a shared commonality dealing with the devastation.    

But Jackson Square is still Jackson Square.  I wonder what NO natives would say if New Mexico and Wyoming insisted on Jackson Square being renamed to Seminole Square?  

Edited by Anomaly

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Era Might    1,537
Era Might
2 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

Nawlins is a different world. One of my sisters attended Loyola and her husband attended Tulane.  The lived there after graduation for more than ten years.   I visited a lot.  Notably, my most racist family members are from Illinois.  

There are a lot of opinions and perspectives.  NO removed many if their monuments because there was open public debate, and maybe, after Katrina, there is a shared commonality dealing with the devastation.    But Jackson Square is still Jackson Square.  I wonder what NO would say if New Mexico and Wyoming insisted on it being renamed?  

Lincoln was from Illinois. Even he, in the Lincoln-Douglass debates, didn't think blacks and whites could live together equally, had to be separate but equal.

The mayor of New Orleans supports the removal of the monuments, not New Mexico and Wyoming. But, Jackson was a US President, not a member of symbolic state that fought against the United States. Even though Jackson was a despicable person and probably should be pulled down.

Regardless, I don't have any particular feeling about the statues. I think it's best as a local matter, but, the "states rights" rhetoric is part of the legacy of segregation and the Confederacy. Trump wants to "make America great again," but the old Confederacy/Segregation ideology is fearful of national citizenship, which is why they frame everything as a state and local matter. They don't want Washington telling them they can't push blacks to the back of the bus, or they don't want Washington sending in federal troops to allow a black man to register at Ole Miss, as is his right as a citizen. When Trump says "make America great again," what he really means is make white America great again. Southerners loved America as long as the white man ran everything locally...once you had people in Washington or Boston talking about abolition and freeing slaves and helping black people vote and changing the institutional racism of prisons and economies...then, that's when the Confederacy is born. It's a Confederacy for white supremacy. That's what the Confederacy is.

22 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

and maybe, after Katrina, there is a shared commonality dealing with the devastation.

I wasn't here for Katrina, but we had a flash flood recently and the canals were overflowing. 12 years since Katrina, same problems. Would anybody cry if another Katrina wiped this city out? It's only black people. I'm not even being sarcastic. New Orleans is a sad place. A place for white people to come and party, and for black people to hustle out a living. All the white people who can/could flee to the suburbs. They want nothing to do with New Orleans. And if you go up the road, you have Angola Prison to deal with all the blacks. It's really a vicious, brutal city, though that's not entirely because of American racism...this was a big port back in the 1800s with a legacy from the old Spanish/French/Colonial orders, like the racial castes in South America.

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Seven77    1,037
Seven77

I agree that Trump is like Jerry Springer… he is stoking the fire. Even though he may not technically be a racist, he allows himself to be mistaken as one for sure. A buffoon like King Herod or Nero. And that kind of behavior is unworthy of the president of USA.

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Anomaly    2,480
Anomaly

You're welcome to voice your opinion.  I disagree on most points, particularly the sweeping allegations of what "really" are the motivation and agendas for large groups of people.  Either of us may be mistaken, but that is the purpose of civil and public discourse.    Unfortunately, it's easy to purposely or innocently malign other's intent and meaning with assumptions and condemnation instead of asking and uncomfortably listening.   if you think it's just American Plantation hegemony, read vee's first link to a reformed white supremacist from the U.K.  

I personally feel most Confederate monuments are a mistake and partially perpetuate and idealize a culture that institutionalized race oppression. I also feel that many non-racists see them as a monument to their identity and speak as resistance against oppression by the victorious outsiders.   They should be removed or at least relocated away from Government property.

Respect for the different perspectives of what these monuments represent is needed so that opportunists don't seize the opportunity to create conflict for power games or sell advertising for autos and fall fashions.

Heck, with the many possibilities for topics, maybe dUSt swirled up a Trump controversy because this board has been practically comatose.  

Edited by Anomaly

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Era Might    1,537
Era Might
1 hour ago, Anomaly said:

You're welcome to voice your opinion.  I disagree on most points, particularly the sweeping allegations of what "really" are the motivation and agendas for large groups of people.  Either of us may be mistaken, but that is the purpose of civil and public discourse.    Unfortunately, it's easy to purposely or innocently malign other's intent and meaning with assumptions and condemnation instead of asking and uncomfortably listening.   if you think it's just American Plantation hegemony, read vee's first link to a reformed white supremacist from the U.K.  

I personally feel most Confederate monuments are a mistake and partially perpetuate and idealize a culture that institutionalized race oppression. I also feel that many non-racists see them as a monument to their identity and speak as resistance against oppression by the victorious outsiders.   They should be removed or at least relocated away from Government property.

Respect for the different perspectives of what these monuments represent is needed so that opportunists don't seize the opportunity to create conflict for power games or sell advertising for autos and fall fashions.  

People have lots of motivations for what they do. I'm not a psychologist. But we all live in objective, material contexts. I don't need to listen to a random Southerner to understand the South and the forces of history, society, culture, etc. that make the people there. I don't need to get to know a Trump supporter in order to understand how Trump is duping them. Politics is a broad platform to symbolize certain messages, to speak to certain demographics, to encapsulate certain values, etc. Not every Trump supporter worships the man, but they don't have to. That's the function of politics, to separate the man from the symbol. That's the purpose of statues, to separate the man from the myth. No statue is "history," it's myth-making. When Trump says "make America great again," he is creating a vacuum that people of a certain disposition can fill however they want. For neo-Nazis, they can project Nazism onto it. For rural patriots, they can project god and guns onto it. For people out of work, struggling, afraid of what's going to happen to the economy, they can project xenophobia and isolationism onto it. Trump isn't stupid. These people are ALL his base, and he created a propaganda campaign that could reach them all while still keeping a veneer of mainstream respectability to appeal to Joe the Plumber in New York who doesn't care about politics but just wants to see some change. But, Trump chooses his moments wisely...he purposely waited a few days to condemn the white supremacists in Charlottesville by name, and then he framed it into a moral equivalence, so that Charlottesville would just be an unfortunate incident, a moment of passion on all sides, because if everybody is to blame then nobody is to blame. He needs plausible deniability. He sends messages in code, because his goal is to appeal to the worst in everyone without appearing to do so. Recently, he told police not to worry about banging suspect heads. [insert laugh track]. Of course, he can say he was just joking, just speaking hyperbolically. But he knew exactly what he was doing. The message is clear: get all these blacks and browns off the streets however you have to. We'll make sure we lock 'em up and throw away the key. wink wink nudge nudge. Charlottesville was great for Trump, because now he can make a statement condemning violence on all sides, because what he really wants is law and order. The same tactic was used during the Civil Rights movement. Bull Connor in Alabama would round everyone up in the name of law and order and condemn outside agitators for coming into his state. He couldn't appear to be a segregationist, he had to appear like a guy just doing his job, protecting the law.

God resisteth the proud. Trump's downfall is coming, as sure as the day is long.

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little2add    475
little2add

Shame on the politicians who are trying to push blame on President Trump for what happened in Charlottesville, VA. That’s absurd. What about the politicians such as the city council who voted to remove a memorial that had been in place since 1924, regardless of the possible repercussions?

How about the city politicians who issued the permit for the lawful demonstration to defend the statue? And why didn’t the mayor or the governor see that a powder keg was about to explode and stop it before it got started?

Instead they want to blame Trump, for everything. Really, this boils down to evil in people’s hearts. Satan is behind it all. He wants division, he wants unrest, he wants violence and hatred. He’s the enemy of peace and unity.

denounce bigotry and racism of every form, be it black, white or any other.  ”  pray for peace and for all those impacted by Saturday’s tragedies.

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dairygirl4u2c    62
dairygirl4u2c

trump threw a fit about obama being from africa when he had nothing to base it on other than he was black. he said a judge who ruled unfavorably against him must have been motivated because he was a mexican even though there was no evidence this was the case. these sorts of things are at least racist tendencies, perhaps not racist full stop, but you can't really blame someone who says they think that's the case. like pau ryan said the mexican judge thing was textbook racism.... id say probably not textbook as that is more like 'i hate you because of your skin color', but it's gettin there.

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dominicansoul    4,456
dominicansoul
1 hour ago, dairygirl4u2c said:

trump threw a fit about obama being from africa when he had nothing to base it on other than he was black. he said a judge who ruled unfavorably against him must have been motivated because he was a mexican even though there was no evidence this was the case. these sorts of things are at least racist tendencies, perhaps not racist full stop, but you can't really blame someone who says they think that's the case. like pau ryan said the mexican judge thing was textbook racism.... id say probably not textbook as that is more like 'i hate you because of your skin color', but it's gettin there.

There was a lot of speculation over Obama's citizenship, and it wasn't because he was black.  Sheesh, there was a question over his scholarships and  his status in college because they were that of an "international" student!!!  That means someone who is NOT a citizen of the USA!  Why didn't he EVER release his transcripts to prove this was false?  Why did it take so long for his birth certificate to generate??  

As for the Mexican Judge, I'M HISPANIC and I know EXACTLY what Trump was referring to!! There is a shade of hispanics who put the color of their skin FIRST.  This Judge had been active in LA RAZA, look it up.  It's another KKK group except the members are brown.  Same hate, different color.  

 Republicans hate Trump cos he's not a politician and he's trying to drain the swamp of corruption in D.C., in which Ryan is a huge part of...

 I know Trump is NO SAINT, he's an imbecile and an idiot and says some really really STUPID things, but he's not the dangerous enemy of the USA that the left portrays him to be.  Let him be president for a day! Not one moment have the liberals left him alone!  The Russia thing has even fizzled!!  Wake up Americans!! This is the LEFTISTS anti-American machine at work here!  I wouldn't be shocked if Soros paid those men to portray the KKK and start trouble!  He bussed thousands of people to Texas to try and stop our government from enacting pro-life legislation!  I know cos I was there and I witnessed it.  These thousands took up chants to satan at our state capitol while we prolifers prayed the Rosary!  They were not from TEXAS!!! 

little2add is correct, this is SATAN, not Trump!

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dairygirl4u2c    62
dairygirl4u2c

the stuff about obama being an international student is deemed false by a basic internet search. plus if it was true trump never mentioned it. he had no basis other than obama was black. i guess you could stretch that his dad was  non US citizen, but you know it wouldn't have been an issue with someone white with a forigen parent

the judge thing is also deemed false by internet. trump never gave a baiss for his accusations other than he was mexican. 

 

Edited by dairygirl4u2c

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vee    4,728
vee
1 hour ago, dominicansoul said:

As for the Mexican Judge, I'M HISPANIC and I know EXACTLY what Trump was referring to!! There is a shade of hispanics who put the color of their skin FIRST.  This Judge had been active in LA RAZA, look it up.  It's another KKK group except the members are brown.  Same hate, different color.  

 only white people are racist and hateful,  everyone else is just trying to free themselves from white oppression.  

IMG_2032.thumb.JPG.885d1172185ab3b1a2caa5cb49653c97.JPG

 

Just look at what white poeple do. When they aren't hating they are culturally appropriating and destroying   

Edited by vee
Typo

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vee    4,728
vee
4 hours ago, little2add said:

Shame on the politicians who are trying to push blame on President Trump for what happened in Charlottesville, VA. That’s absurd. What about the politicians such as the city council who voted to remove a memorial that had been in place since 1924, regardless of the possible repercussions?

How about the city politicians who issued the permit for the lawful demonstration to defend the statue? And why didn’t the mayor or the governor see that a powder keg was about to explode and stop it before it got started?

Exactly!  And where are the state and local politicians now?  Why is trump expected to do everything perfectly all the time but others it doesn't matter. 

Oh but ds it's ok for that lawmaker to say those things because she's black and saying them against an evil white person. 

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Ice_nine    2,270
Ice_nine

*sigh*

For the people who always defend Trump, no matter what stupid thing he does do or does not do, your credibility is moot. Toeing the line, that's all.

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dominicansoul    4,456
dominicansoul

Antifa violence:  you're wearing the wrong shirt

Pro-Trump-Berkeley-4.jpg

Antifa:  let's pepper spray the elderly man wearing the wrong hat, cos, you know, NAZI!!!

 

Pro-Trump-Berkeley-1.jpg

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fides' Jack    898
fides' Jack
On 8/17/2017 at 11:42 AM, dUSt said:

The fact that he says stuff like "good people on both sides", when one of the sides is Nazi's and White Supremacists. It's a dumb thing to say, and in my opinion, only something someone who is racist would say. I cannot understand how a non-racist person would make a statement like this.

He never says stuff like that when talking about ISIS. I'm sure he doesn't believe there are "good people on both sides" when one side is ISIS. Only a person who sympathizes or can justify the actions of the other side would use this type of language.

I agree his words were stupid - a lot of what he says is stupid.  However, don't pick out the white supremacists and nazis without ALSO picking out Antifa, which is at least as bad.  They are the alt-left, and there is evidence that they started the violence in this case.

NOTE: I am not advocating either group.  They are both vicious, violent, disgusting groups whose members are risking eternal damnation.

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Ice_nine    2,270
Ice_nine

Those pictures have absolutely no context. But regardless, you fail to understand the difference between unprovoked violence, and violence as a reaction to violence.

Let's say someone molested a child, made the kid's life a living hell. Screwed him up a whole lot. Anyhow, kid grows up, finds the molester, and stabs him 26 times. Talk about legality, talk about morality, but the perpetrator became a murder because he was made a victim.

The above is not a perfect or exact analogy, but there is a long and ugly history of racism in America, and it is a legacy that persists still today. So while there may be hate and violence on many sides, on many sides, you two ds and vee seem to fail to understand the context in which this violence occurs. One side's violence arises from a loss of power/privilege/esteem and the other side's violence is in reaction to various forms of unjust oppression. Those two things aren't equal. If the former goes away, the latter has less reason to exist. If the latter goes away, the former remains, as it precedes reactionary violence.

But you want to just say it's all the same. It's on both sides. Both are responsible. And you can post as many pictures of bloody Trump protesters as you want. That's just a strawman. No one is saying that blacks/liberals/anti-kkk/(insert any historically oppressed group or any of their sympathizers here) are innocent lambs, or that they never employ violence. That's a strawman. I'm not even making any moral claims about if that violence is appropriate, i.e. is it the right course of action. But I can understand people reacting with violence, to people who are hellbent on retaining a power structure that benefits them at the expense of others.

But I'm glad you find this amusing.

 

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dairygirl4u2c    62
dairygirl4u2c

trump didn't qualify that the racists were the ones who were by far mostly in the wrong. nothing he said was untrue but it was in poor taste and did a disservice to the victims the way he said it.

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