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havok579257

Conservative/Liberal.... then Catholic

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havok579257

It seems more and more each day so many catholics put their politics ahead of their faith.  They are some political stance first and a catholic second.  Just think about all the catholics who support Trump's actions and words when he lies and personally insults people. Or liberals who support Democrat's who do the same thing.  I just can't not understand why their is either rabid support for everything Trump foes or rabid support for evertyping the Democrats do.  At the end of the day liberals and right on many things and wrong on many things. Conservatives and Trump are right on many things and wrong on many things.  No one party is right, yet many catholics act like it.  They support to good of one party and justify why the evil the party commits is justifiable .  It's really sad.

 

On another forum someone questioned why thier was not a catholic political party for catholics.  The answer seems simple.  Not enough catholics put their faith above their politics.  

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Anomaly

I don't think your assumptions are accurate, reasonable, or fair.  However, I do think you are sincere with your perception. 

It is the media that says Catholics don't really understand what Catholicism represents and how tolerant it is. 

For example, Catholicism isn't against a border wall, as long as there is a legitimate gate to allow access.    Catholicism does support the sovereignty of countries and shared identity of citizenship.  

Its media that perpetuates the misconceptions that if you support a wall, you don't support a gate too.   Or if you support a gate, you don't support a wall. 

No different than if you don't support a gay lifestyle, then you hate gays.   Or if you invite a gay person to church, you support a gay lifestyle.   

(Or if you use "gay" instead of Same Sex Attracted because its quicker, you are demeaning and homophobic)

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havok579257

Well I don't think the media has anything to do with what I am talking about.  An example would be the death penalty. The church teaches it's moral in limited circumstances, which I agree with.  Although the Republicans on  a whole don't just support the death penalty in these rare instances.  They support it as a deterent  to committing crimes or as retribution. This is just one example about conservatives. Another would be support of torture not be acceptable in the church but supported by Trump and some conservatives.  I won't even show an examples of liberals because everyone here knows what they support against church teaching.

My issue is neither party is close to following catholic teaching and catholics should be condemning both parties but this rarley happens on the lay person level.  I see this a lot from the USSCB where they condemn both sides on things that go against church teaching but not most lay catholics.  Instead they seem to justify why one party is for catholic teaching over the other and justify the evils their party supports.

 

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Anomaly

You are essentially accusing people of being bad Catholics by generalizing and assuming.   A Catholic can support the death penalty as a fair and reasonable justice for taking a life, as well as ending the harm and danger to society, other inmates, and guards.   At that point it is a prudential judgment call, not being a bad Catholic.  There is room to disagree. 

As far as "torture", exactly where is the limit that pressure is coercion, discomfort is damage?  There is room for discussion and disagreement before condemning someone as putting politics before religion.  

People, motivations, and intentions are perfect or pure when put into action.   It's the whole weed and wheat, swallowing camels and choking on gnats thing.

Catholics can choose two different things while having the best of intentions that do what is right on both choices in many instances. 

Edited by Anomaly

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havok579257
3 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

You are essentially accusing people of being bad Catholics by generalizing and assuming.   A Catholic can support the death penalty as a fair and reasonable justice for taking a life, as well as ending the harm and danger to society, other inmates, and guards.   At that point it is a prudential judgment call, not being a bad Catholic.  There is room to disagree. 

As far as "torture", exactly where is the limit that pressure is coercion, discomfort is damage?  There is room for discussion and disagreement before condemning someone as putting politics before religion.  

Maybe I am missing it, but when did the catechism support using the death penalty for a form of justice in taking a life?  It supports using it for protecting society from the inmate, which I have no issue with.  The issue is support of it in hopes it will reduce crime which lots of republicans support.  I don't know anywhere the church has said its ok to use the death penalty as a deterent to future crimes. 

 

As to torture, maybe that's my fault for not being specific enough.  I assumed we all knew what we were talking about when it comes to torture by the american government.  I am talking about the torture methods that were being debated after 9/11 such as water boarding and so on and so on.  I honestly can't see any catholic make a viable argument the church supports torture of prisoners like this.  

 

What I am accusing people of, is putting their politics ahead of their faith.  Politics and political party have seem to become the new religion of this country.     

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Anomaly

You are putting politics ahead of faith.  Read the Catechism.  2267....etc

The Church has traditionally taught punishment that is commiserate with the crime.  It's mot new that Death penalty can be a legitimate action in defense of  others. It's relatively new that the Church says that modern times provides incarceration as adequate to protect lives and society.  That is opinion, and a generalization, and leaves room for contention. 

Just as you assumed a general understanding of torture, some people could contend inprisonment itself, as torture.  Much less solitary confinement or ability to protect other inmates or guards and the degree of endangerment. 

I think you're unintentionally calling kettles black, Mr Pott.   

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dUSt

I totally agree with the premise of your post, that many Catholics place politics before faith. 

In fact, I made a graphic about this a while back...

11898520_10153108273668061_5232102484268

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Anomaly

@dUSt, you are kinda making my point...

a great article to read a bit about how Catholics can disagree on the Death Penalty and other things that are important l, but not equal to abortion is on Catholic dot com. "Did the Church Change Its Teaching in the Death Penalty?" by Christopher Kaczor.    There are some things that a black and white moral issues, but applying them in the real world isn't as defined.  

Voting Democrat because you support a particular government immigration policy has to be tempered with supporting a party that supports abortion.  Voting Republican to support right to life has to be tempered with a party that may be too restrictive if immigration. 

A Catholic can vote for ether and still be a good Catholic.    Its mostly media and party politics that are convincing people that a Catholics are voting FOR abortion or FOR a border without a gate.  And there are Catholics that say the same things about each other.  

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havok579257
49 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

@dUSt, you are kinda making my point...

a great article to read a bit about how Catholics can disagree on the Death Penalty and other things that are important l, but not equal to abortion is on Catholic dot com. "Did the Church Change Its Teaching in the Death Penalty?" by Christopher Kaczor.    There are some things that a black and white moral issues, but applying them in the real world isn't as defined.  

Voting Democrat because you support a particular government immigration policy has to be tempered with supporting a party that supports abortion.  Voting Republican to support right to life has to be tempered with a party that may be too restrictive if immigration. 

A Catholic can vote for ether and still be a good Catholic.    Its mostly media and party politics that are convincing people that a Catholics are voting FOR abortion or FOR a border without a gate.  And there are Catholics that say the same things about each other.  

It's not about voting for one party over the other being right or wrong. Choosing the lesser of two evils is not wrong. What's wrong is trying to justify your party affiliations every action even when it goes against church teaching and condemning the other party for everything even when it goes with church teaching.  

 

It's like the people who 100% support Trump No matter what he says or does.  They try to justify his every word or action. If he degrades a football player and their mother like at the Alabama rally they justify why that's ok. Or his constant insulting and sinful behavior towards others on twitter. I personally voted for Trump but will gladly condemn him when his actions go against church teachings. Many catholics will not and try to find a way to justify his actions just because he is a conservative.  Those same catholics will condemn Democrats no matter what.  

If your an honest catholic you can not support every policy the conservative party stands for and condemn everything the liberal party stands for. Both parties are right on things and wrong on this. To try to claim one side is 100% right and the other is wrong is to put politics ahead of chruch teachings.

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Anomaly

Lol. I'm not a Catholic. And I honestly don't think there are very many people, Catholic or other, who 100% defend or 100% attack Mr Trump.  There are a few, and they're the public icons and examples used to foster discord and perpetuate drama.   And to be honest, I think many religious leaders fall for it, or may be cynically utilizing it.  

Trump got elected because he was disliked a little less than Hillary, and people are tired of the moribund stale politics.   Its media manufacturing divisions that is constantly promulgating the idea that large populations are 100% one way or another.   Trump was different enough, savvy enough, and outside politics enough to get elected.    There are still thousands of senators, congressmen, state and federal, governors, mayors, and bureaucrats that are operating the government machines.  We didn't get the hoped for "change" with Barak or Donald.   We never will as long as its just an us vs them game. We're kept occupied and entertained while the real game is played offstage.  

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Seven77
3 hours ago, Anomaly said:

We never will as long as its just an us vs them game. We're kept occupied and entertained while the real game is played offstage.  

1

I think this exactly is Havok's point. Too many Catholics have the us versus them syndrome. It's the liberals against the conservatives and vice versa. The enemy of truth's game is divide and conquer. But in reality, were all in it together. We are all human beings as Era put it in the other thread. We are more than Republican or Democrat or whatever.

  If we hate those we disagree with, the battle is lost.

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Anomaly
11 minutes ago, Seven77 said:

I think this exactly is Havok's point. Too many Catholics have the us versus them syndrome. It's the liberals against the conservatives and vice versa. The enemy of truth's game is divide and conquer. But in reality, were all in it together. We are all human beings as Era put it in the other thread. We are more than Republican or Democrat or whatever.

  If we hate those we disagree with, the battle is lost.

I don't disagree with the point that hate is divisive, I disagree that disagreement is necessarily hateful or divisive or that most people really hate over the disagreement.     My point is that we're told, and often believe, that those who disagree are hateful or require a strong reaction or even believe all that we are told they believe. 

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Ice_nine

you know what's funny? We're all obsessed with these macro issues which, by their very nature, we have very little control over. Imagine if we were this obsessed with the issues in our immediate vicinity. I talk about racial injustice, but I don't know many Black people. I don't hang out with much of them. I don't physically stand with them or reach out to them.

Just thinking out loud.

I'm sure there are people that do more than kvetch on the internet. I aspire to be one of those people.

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Peace

Multitudes of Catholics put their politics over their faith, as I have so slanderously accused members of this forum on occasion.

Universal Health Care should go on that list somewhere @dUSt.

Edited by Peace

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