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Anomaly

Jerusalem as Capitol

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Era Might
1 minute ago, dominicansoul said:

I've only posted simple truths of what he did.  He kept a promise he made during his campaign.  I haven't even said I agree with it or not.  You've already judged I see him in a kind light.    I don't but I don't look at him through pensive bitter hatred either.  

Ok, so you haven't said anything about him. So I guess we're not talking about anything then. Let me know if you have an opinion.

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dominicansoul

Okay, it's about time you asked. Sheesh.

This is what I think about it...

I hate it, because there is going to be obvious retaliation from those who want Palestinian Nationalism.  The Jews and Muslims hated each other before, this will escalate into more violence, more deaths.  

We truly truly need to be striving for PEACE, and even if we haven't seen anything close to PEACE in the 70 something years since this all erupted, I believe this to be a step backward and not forward. 

Past presidents and Trump all promised to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.  Other presidents were bullied out of it (because I do believe that Palestinians bully the opposition and they are just as stubborn as the Jews are,) but Trump doesn't get bullied out of anything.  

(Granted, I have agreed on some of what he's done, and I applaud him for it.  But in this case, I think its a terrible thing and it will have bitter consequences.  It's not entirely his fault, we have two other parties here who are actually responsible for the violent reactions: the muslims and the jews.  If only they could put their poo together, we wouldn't have to play peace maker all the time.)  

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havok579257
37 minutes ago, Era Might said:

When he does something good I'll acknowledge it. How many things am I supposed to acknowledge to be considered fair-minded?

Trump gave some recognition to the opioid epidemic. I think that was good, even though I think his "tough on crime" ideology is connected to it. If it's a white problem, it's a national problem. If it's blacks and browns, it's a crime problem.

I'm racking my brain trying to think of something else that I think was good. Can't think of it. Some things are necessary, according to the logic of what it means to hold power.  But "good" things, I can't think of much. I don't consider moving the embassy to Jerusalem good or bad. It's a geopolitical decision, and the only way to judge it is whether it solves a problem, improves international relations and contributes to a strategy. But I don't applaud this (or condemn it) for ideological reasons. I think part of the reason the decision was made was to play to the fanatical Evangelicals in America who think American foreign policy is tied up with the Book of Revelation and Armageddon. And yes, I think that was part of Trump's reason for making this decision, not that he's a bible believer, but he knows who his base is.

That's your business who you believe Trump is. I only care what your interpretation of his Administration and platform is. I don't believe you can read an Administration apart from a larger analysis of the country and other political and ideological currents. So, my interpretation of Trump is also an interpretation of America and the global situation. I don't look at Trump in a vacuum.

 

see you can't even acknowledge anything Trump does.  you have to turn it into something it's not.  something so you can say, see, Trump is the most evil man on the planet.  even when he appears to do something good, its just to pass his evil agenda. 

 

Good things Trump has done:

1. Placed Gorsech on the bench. The only people who have been opposed to this on the grounds he is a bad judge is the most partisan left.  Moderates and those who lean left site him as being a good judge.  They don't agree with his beliefs but they acknowledge his work as a judge is very good.

2. The economy is moving in the right direction because of Trump.  Trump's presidency has had an effect on the economy in a positive way.  

3. He recognized the opiod crisis and is working to deal with it.

4. He appointed Jeff Sessions to AG. Someone who had bipartisan support for years in congress and only now the issue comes up because democrats can not been seen as helping Trump in anyway, no matter how good the candidate for AG is.

 

Just a few good things he did.  Although I am sure you will turn this into its all some elaborate plan of Trump's to bring back slavery, put the KKK in power or some other nonsense partisan scream.

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Era Might
2 minutes ago, dominicansoul said:

Okay, it's about time you asked. Sheesh.

This is what I think about it...

I hate it, because there is going to be obvious retaliation from those who want Palestinian Nationalism.  The Jews and Muslims hated each other before, this will escalate into more violence, more deaths.  

We truly truly need to be striving for PEACE, and even if we haven't seen anything close to PEACE in the 70 something years since this all erupted, I believe this to be a step backward and not forward. 

Past presidents and Trump all promised to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.  Other presidents were bullied out of it (because I do believe that Palestinians bully the opposition and they are just as stubborn as the Jews are,) but Trump doesn't get bullied out of anything.  

(Granted, I have agreed on some of what he's done, and I applaud him for it.  But in this case, I think its a terrible thing and it will have bitter consequences.  It's not entirely his fault, we have two other parties here who are actually responsible for the violent reactions: the muslims and the jews.  If only they could put their poo together, we wouldn't have to play peace maker all the time.)  

A sensible argument, but I don't think (from Trump's POV) it has anything with Jews or Palestinians. This advances Trump's interests. If it didn't, he wouldn't have done it. He doesn't care about what happened 70 years ago. He's here to pursue his interests. He likes to repeat the phrase "Radical Islamic Terrorism" because it's a good propaganda slogan, not because he cares anything about the Middle East, Islam, or even terrorism. But, I think the question of violence is probably not a main concern of his, because he wants a strong police and military order, both at home and internationally. If this causes any problems, he has the US military at his disposal. He can't be bullied because he has nothing personally at stake. When you are the world's greatest empire, you don't worry about such petty questions, except as tactical considerations. 

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KnightofChrist

It wouldn't be surprising to find out that a high number of groups, especially violent groups, that do not recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel also do not recognize Israel's right to exist.

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Anomaly

Ignore that it was Trump who is president.    What about the merits or consequences of the action?

Why not?

Okay, only if Israel meets certain conditions?  Such as what?

No because it upsets Palestine?Do they have a right to violently react?

No because it upsets Muslims?   Do they have a right to violently react?

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Seven77

This is an absolutely terrible and dangerous decision that does nothing to advance the cause of peace. How is this going to allow for a two state solution (the only solution)? 

Palestinians--Muslims and Christians–– have been treated as second-class citizens. This is yet another slap in the face.

 Jerusalem should be open, belonging to both sides and yet belonging to no one... 

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Anomaly

Why doesn’t Israel get to have Jerusalem as it’s Capitol, since it’s been the cultural and religious capitol far longer than any other realistic claim?   

So previous proclamations by Presidents have been lip service, lies, with no intention of ever letting it happen?

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linate

trump is just causing trouble for the sake of wanting to be contrarian with past presidents. there are decent arguments for both sides, so why would trump want to fan the flames of turmoil? what point does it achieve? even if trump thinks jeruselum should be the capital, there's more to being the world's highest diplomat than being right.

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Seven77
24 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

Why doesn’t Israel get to have Jerusalem as it’s Capitol, since it’s been the cultural and religious capitol far longer than any other realistic claim?   

So previous proclamations by Presidents have been lip service, lies, with no intention of ever letting it happen?

why don't the Palestinian Muslims and Christians get to have their own sovereign nation? they've been living there far longer than the existence of the secular state of Israel...

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dominicansoul
17 hours ago, KnightofChrist said:

It wouldn't be surprising to find out that a high number of groups, especially violent groups, that do not recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel also do not recognize Israel's right to exist.

Sadly u are correct.  

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Anomaly
On 12/8/2017 at 9:50 PM, Seven77 said:

why don't the Palestinian Muslims and Christians get to have their own sovereign nation? they've been living there far longer than the existence of the secular state of Israel...

The Muslims have many countries.  The Palestinians could too if they fundamentally were not fixated and committed to the elimination of the Jewish people. 

At this point in history, the Western world has learned from experience, and is guilty of, ignoring the plight of the Jews when they are targeted for elimination.   It’s not like Israel was carved out of eastern Australia.  

Edited by Anomaly

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Era Might
9 hours ago, Anomaly said:

At this point in history, the Western world has learned from experience, and is guilty of, ignoring the plight of the Jews when they are targeted for elimination.   It’s not like Israel was carved out of eastern Australia.  

The thing is, The Jews have become an archetype, just as nice black person has. The Jews are the persecuted, the hated. Right now, Syrians are Jews just as much as German Jews during WW2. Jews as a people have had a hard history, but what we should draw from that is solidarity with all Jews all nice black people, regardless of race or religion.

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dominicansoul

If we look at the Jews as rightful heirs to the Holy Land, then let’s hand over the entire North American continent to the indigenous people.

 It’s no longer just theirs.  We all need to share it.  Just as the Jews need to share Jerusalem.  

 

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Era Might
15 hours ago, dominicansoul said:

If we look at the Jews as rightful heirs to the Holy Land, then let’s hand over the entire North American continent to the indigenous people.

 It’s no longer just theirs.  We all need to share it.  Just as the Jews need to share Jerusalem.  

 

The funniest thing about all this is we're literally talking about invisible lines. Pretty much every human problem comes down to invisible lines. Nobody wants to lose their invisible lines because the lines were just as invisible when they re-drew them as they are today.

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PhultonSheen

What does it say about our fellow Abrahamic brethren, that in the mere act of acknowledging the wishes of a nation to determine its capital, that this is somehow a dangerous act?

It's sad that we have to worry about the violent actions of a group that is already committing violent actions, with or without this acknowledgement.

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Era Might
11 minutes ago, PhultonSheen said:

What does it say about our fellow Abrahamic brethren, that in the mere act of acknowledging the wishes of a nation to determine its capital, that this is somehow a dangerous act?

It's sad that we have to worry about the violent actions of a group that is already committing violent actions, with or without this acknowledgement.

The idea of a "nation determining its capital" is pretty recent (it was after WWI that we started talking about self-determination in a post-imperial world). The modern nation-state is not universal, natural or neutral, but it's the system we have. This isn't easy in the Middle East where society is still build on older models (tribal, religious, ethnic, etc.). It's convenient for the West to blame Islamic countries for some sort of special violence...but the West has been slaughtering each other for centuries. It took two world wars to even start thinking in terms of internationalism, self-determination, etc. And it's far from a reality...if you're from, say, Iraq or Syria or Palestine, how would you look at the West? The West (particularly the USA) talks about internationalism and self-determination, but considers itself the "leader of the free world" (the dumbest phrase ever, why does a free world need a leader?). Israel is a modern, Western nation in the midst of the Middle East...a strong ally of the USA...why wouldn't other people in the region be defensive or hostile about that? Even after WW2, the USA and Russia were basically Israel and Palestine on a global scale. They divided the world between them and fought it out.

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PhultonSheen
13 minutes ago, Era Might said:

The idea of a "nation determining its capital" is pretty recent (it was after WWI that we started talking about self-determination in a post-imperial world). The modern nation-state is not universal, natural or neutral, but it's the system we have. This isn't easy in the Middle East where society is still build on older models (tribal, religious, ethnic, etc.). It's convenient for the West to blame Islamic countries for some sort of special violence...but the West has been slaughtering each other for centuries. It took two world wars to even start thinking in terms of internationalism, self-determination, etc. And it's far from a reality...if you're from, say, Iraq or Syria or Palestine, how would you look at the West? The West (particularly the USA) talks about internationalism and self-determination, but considers itself the "leader of the free world" (the dumbest phrase ever, why does a free world need a leader?). Israel is a modern, Western nation in the midst of the Middle East...a strong ally of the USA...why wouldn't other people in the region be defensive or hostile about that? Even after WW2, the USA and Russia were basically Israel and Palestine on a global scale. They divided the world between them and fought it out.

I can see what you're saying, but the saddest part is there's really no solution. 

We live in a modern day of terrorism, wherein atrocities (not tragedies, but human-made atrocities) are happening almost on a weekly basis, preceded by a call to a higher power.

We can bring up Western violence, sure... but in THIS instance regarding Jerusalem, we're talking about one group threatening to ramp up their violence, that of which they're already committing in a disproportionate amount compared to the West at the moment.

To NOT acknowledge Jerusalem as the capitol is to not support our Jewish brethren, and to impose the bigotry of low expectations on the Islamic world, in that they cannot handle without violence something that is going to happen irregardless. It's a tough conundrum, in that we're proverbially damned if we do, damned if we don't.

Given that we're talking about the City of Peace, this seems to be a recurring theme of Jerusalem... and it saddens the soul of almost everyone in some way or another.

I can tell by your tone your outright dismissal of the concept of the US leading the "free world"... but we mustn't look much further back than the incredible role that  America played in keeping communism at bay. That was a very real threat to freedom everywhere, and hence the origins of the moniker.

And when we have hate speech laws instituted in most Western nations with the exception of the USA, many of which can misconstrue many of our own Catholic doctrines, I don't believe it's beneficial for us to deride the intentions of keeping dictators, atheistic regimes, and dogmatic tyrants at bay as something silly. It's a very real necessity.

Edited by PhultonSheen

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