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Anomaly

Jerusalem as Capitol

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linate

trump is just causing trouble for the sake of wanting to be contrarian with past presidents. there are decent arguments for both sides, so why would trump want to fan the flames of turmoil? what point does it achieve? even if trump thinks jeruselum should be the capital, there's more to being the world's highest diplomat than being right.

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Seven77
24 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

Why doesn’t Israel get to have Jerusalem as it’s Capitol, since it’s been the cultural and religious capitol far longer than any other realistic claim?   

So previous proclamations by Presidents have been lip service, lies, with no intention of ever letting it happen?

why don't the Palestinian Muslims and Christians get to have their own sovereign nation? they've been living there far longer than the existence of the secular state of Israel...

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dominicansoul
17 hours ago, KnightofChrist said:

It wouldn't be surprising to find out that a high number of groups, especially violent groups, that do not recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel also do not recognize Israel's right to exist.

Sadly u are correct.  

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Anomaly
On 12/8/2017 at 9:50 PM, Seven77 said:

why don't the Palestinian Muslims and Christians get to have their own sovereign nation? they've been living there far longer than the existence of the secular state of Israel...

The Muslims have many countries.  The Palestinians could too if they fundamentally were not fixated and committed to the elimination of the Jewish people. 

At this point in history, the Western world has learned from experience, and is guilty of, ignoring the plight of the Jews when they are targeted for elimination.   It’s not like Israel was carved out of eastern Australia.  

Edited by Anomaly

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Era Might
9 hours ago, Anomaly said:

At this point in history, the Western world has learned from experience, and is guilty of, ignoring the plight of the Jews when they are targeted for elimination.   It’s not like Israel was carved out of eastern Australia.  

The thing is, The Jews have become an archetype, just as nice black person has. The Jews are the persecuted, the hated. Right now, Syrians are Jews just as much as German Jews during WW2. Jews as a people have had a hard history, but what we should draw from that is solidarity with all Jews all nice black people, regardless of race or religion.

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dominicansoul

If we look at the Jews as rightful heirs to the Holy Land, then let’s hand over the entire North American continent to the indigenous people.

 It’s no longer just theirs.  We all need to share it.  Just as the Jews need to share Jerusalem.  

 

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Era Might
15 hours ago, dominicansoul said:

If we look at the Jews as rightful heirs to the Holy Land, then let’s hand over the entire North American continent to the indigenous people.

 It’s no longer just theirs.  We all need to share it.  Just as the Jews need to share Jerusalem.  

 

The funniest thing about all this is we're literally talking about invisible lines. Pretty much every human problem comes down to invisible lines. Nobody wants to lose their invisible lines because the lines were just as invisible when they re-drew them as they are today.

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PhultonSheen

What does it say about our fellow Abrahamic brethren, that in the mere act of acknowledging the wishes of a nation to determine its capital, that this is somehow a dangerous act?

It's sad that we have to worry about the violent actions of a group that is already committing violent actions, with or without this acknowledgement.

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Era Might
11 minutes ago, PhultonSheen said:

What does it say about our fellow Abrahamic brethren, that in the mere act of acknowledging the wishes of a nation to determine its capital, that this is somehow a dangerous act?

It's sad that we have to worry about the violent actions of a group that is already committing violent actions, with or without this acknowledgement.

The idea of a "nation determining its capital" is pretty recent (it was after WWI that we started talking about self-determination in a post-imperial world). The modern nation-state is not universal, natural or neutral, but it's the system we have. This isn't easy in the Middle East where society is still build on older models (tribal, religious, ethnic, etc.). It's convenient for the West to blame Islamic countries for some sort of special violence...but the West has been slaughtering each other for centuries. It took two world wars to even start thinking in terms of internationalism, self-determination, etc. And it's far from a reality...if you're from, say, Iraq or Syria or Palestine, how would you look at the West? The West (particularly the USA) talks about internationalism and self-determination, but considers itself the "leader of the free world" (the dumbest phrase ever, why does a free world need a leader?). Israel is a modern, Western nation in the midst of the Middle East...a strong ally of the USA...why wouldn't other people in the region be defensive or hostile about that? Even after WW2, the USA and Russia were basically Israel and Palestine on a global scale. They divided the world between them and fought it out.

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PhultonSheen
13 minutes ago, Era Might said:

The idea of a "nation determining its capital" is pretty recent (it was after WWI that we started talking about self-determination in a post-imperial world). The modern nation-state is not universal, natural or neutral, but it's the system we have. This isn't easy in the Middle East where society is still build on older models (tribal, religious, ethnic, etc.). It's convenient for the West to blame Islamic countries for some sort of special violence...but the West has been slaughtering each other for centuries. It took two world wars to even start thinking in terms of internationalism, self-determination, etc. And it's far from a reality...if you're from, say, Iraq or Syria or Palestine, how would you look at the West? The West (particularly the USA) talks about internationalism and self-determination, but considers itself the "leader of the free world" (the dumbest phrase ever, why does a free world need a leader?). Israel is a modern, Western nation in the midst of the Middle East...a strong ally of the USA...why wouldn't other people in the region be defensive or hostile about that? Even after WW2, the USA and Russia were basically Israel and Palestine on a global scale. They divided the world between them and fought it out.

I can see what you're saying, but the saddest part is there's really no solution. 

We live in a modern day of terrorism, wherein atrocities (not tragedies, but human-made atrocities) are happening almost on a weekly basis, preceded by a call to a higher power.

We can bring up Western violence, sure... but in THIS instance regarding Jerusalem, we're talking about one group threatening to ramp up their violence, that of which they're already committing in a disproportionate amount compared to the West at the moment.

To NOT acknowledge Jerusalem as the capitol is to not support our Jewish brethren, and to impose the bigotry of low expectations on the Islamic world, in that they cannot handle without violence something that is going to happen irregardless. It's a tough conundrum, in that we're proverbially damned if we do, damned if we don't.

Given that we're talking about the City of Peace, this seems to be a recurring theme of Jerusalem... and it saddens the soul of almost everyone in some way or another.

I can tell by your tone your outright dismissal of the concept of the US leading the "free world"... but we mustn't look much further back than the incredible role that  America played in keeping communism at bay. That was a very real threat to freedom everywhere, and hence the origins of the moniker.

And when we have hate speech laws instituted in most Western nations with the exception of the USA, many of which can misconstrue many of our own Catholic doctrines, I don't believe it's beneficial for us to deride the intentions of keeping dictators, atheistic regimes, and dogmatic tyrants at bay as something silly. It's a very real necessity.

Edited by PhultonSheen

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Era Might
19 minutes ago, PhultonSheen said:

I can see what you're saying, but the saddest part is there's really no solution. 

We live in a modern day of terrorism, wherein atrocities (not tragedies, but human-made atrocities) are happening almost on a weekly basis, preceded by a call to a higher power.

We can bring up Western violence, sure... but in THIS instance regarding Jerusalem, we're talking about one group threatening to ramp up their violence, that of which they're already committing in a disproportionate amount compared to the West at the moment.

To NOT acknowledge Jerusalem as the capitol is to not support our Jewish brethren, and to impose the bigotry of low expectations on the Islamic world, in that they cannot handle without violence something that is going to happen irregardless. It's a tough conundrum, in that we're proverbially damned if we do, damned if we don't.

Given that we're talking about the City of Peace, this seems to be a recurring theme of Jerusalem... and it saddens the soul of almost everyone in some way or another.

I can tell by your tone your outright dismissal of the concept of the US leading the "free world"... but we mustn't look much further back than the incredible role that  America played in keeping communism at bay. That was a very real threat to freedom everywhere, and hence the origins of the moniker.

And when we have hate speech laws instituted in most Western nations with the exception of the USA, many of which can misconstrue many of our own Catholic doctrines, I don't believe it's beneficial for us to deride the intentions of keeping dictators, atheistic regimes, and dogmatic tyrants at bay as something silly. It's a very real necessity.

I have a lot to say on the subject of the USA, Communism, etc. but don't want to derail the thread. Terrorism seems like it's a special problem today, but actual terrorist attacks are rare. In terms of everyday violence, the world is much less violent than it used to be. The Western world is directly responsible for the situation in the Middle East. After the breakup of Western empires (and the Ottoman empire), the West basically created a fictitious Middle East (e.g., in Iraq).

Which leads to an important point, I think, that the USA is not the savior of the world. The USA does not exist to fix the world. The USA has interests, like everyone else, and is pursuing those interests. I don't think the rest of the world is obliged to recognize the USA's interests as unique or somehow having primacy. The USA likes to think of itself that way, but the rest of the world doesn't.

There's a great documentary on YouTube called Cuba Libre, check it out if you're interested. It's about the USA's more or less colonization of Cuba and pursuit of American business interests on the island. There are a lot of forces at work in the world. The Middle East is a volatile situation, it can't be reduced to a simple worldview where, because the USA has developed a certain way, the rest of the world has to catch up. The Romans once conquered Jerusalem. Christians and Muslims fought over Jerusalem. Now it's Palestinians and Israelis. I think it would be silly to look at any of those fights and say either side was "right."

A capitol is a symbol. I don't think we want to return to a world dominated by symbols, because then everyone doubles down on their symbols. My God vs. your God. My holy site vs. your holy site. My ancestors vs. your ancestors. We need a collaborative and free international order, not fanatical insistence on symbols. That's part of the appeal of ISIS, the symbol of the caliphate and what it represents historically as a unified Muslim world. People are willing to die for symbols, whether it's an American flag, a city or a book. We need to get beyond that kind of mass delusion.

Edited by Era Might

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Seven77
On 12/10/2017 at 8:39 AM, Anomaly said:

The Muslims  have many countries.  The Palestinians could too if they fundamentally were not fixated and committed to the elimination of the Jewish people. 

1

Not all Palestinians are Muslims... and certainly, not all Palestinians desire the elimination of the Jewish people. 

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Anomaly
23 hours ago, Seven77 said:

Not all Palestinians are Muslims... and certainly, not all Palestinians desire the elimination of the Jewish people. 

Yes, I’m quite aware of this.  But pragmatically, would of you support it if Israel conceded in other issues, or is there no reasonable set of circumstances to allow Jerusalem to be within Israel.    What is your stance on the existence of Israel (granted, it was a creation of Britain extricating themselves but trying to leave some stability)?

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beatitude

I lived in Palestine/Israel for years, and may soon be returning. I generally avoid all online conversations on this topic because I have a great many friends, Palestinian and Israeli, who have experienced suffering; over the past week I've spent hours each day in contact with people there. (That's why I'm awake at nearly five in the morning.) After spending so much time listening to them, it can be difficult to see people who live half a world away and who are unlikely to have a personal connection to any human there giving opinions that often make a two-dimensional caricature of the situation. This happens even when opinions are made in good faith. I'm sure I do it too when I talk about countries that I've never had the chance to get to know extensively, so I'm not criticising anybody here. I also don't want to post a bunch of details about life in J'lem.

I would like to ask people to pray. Firstly, to thank God for the good things that he brings out of pain and darkness. I have two friends, one Palestinian, and one Israeli, who have both been expressing identical emotions to me for months  - confusion, fear, increasing despair - and whom I've been wanting to introduce for a while. Each has heard me talk about the other for years, but I never suggested a meeting because I knew they'd be too wary. A couple of days ago I finally suggested it. It felt like the right time. They met for lunch yesterday. It was very difficult to arrange - even getting to a meeting point they could both reach was hard - but the feeling that they couldn't just sit and do nothing in this painful situation made them determined to try, and they both came back with such renewed hope and a palpable joy. They told me that they were together for three and a half hours and the conversation got challenging at times, "but that's OK." They'll be meeting again. Thank God for that.

Pray for my other friends who would love the chance to have contact like that, but who physically can't, because government policies or army action make it impossible. Pray for the ones who are too hostile to want it. For all the people who were hostile but who managed to move past it, that they will put heart into others. Give thanks for the mother of one of my friends, who was courageous enough to forgive the killing of her baby after a decade of pain and anger - her healing came very suddenly, when she went to the aid of  a child from the 'other side' who had fallen over. She had a moment's struggle, where she wanted to see the child's parents suffer, and then she was in tears and holding out her arms to him. Pray for all the hundreds of children I worked with out there who are so curious about the other side but who never get a chance to play with a child who isn't from their community because the schools are separate. For students in the school at Shuafat, which is located at a real flashpoint and whose education will be disrupted by this. For the kids in the tiny (but growing!) number of mixed bilingual peace-orientated schools, their families, and their teachers. For the people of my former parish, who are frustrated that people overseas tend to see Jerusalem as an Islamic v. Jewish issue, and who feel as if they are invisible and unheard. For my friend B, who woke up in a panic in the middle of the night to find armed masked soldiers standing over her bed, having broken into her house. For my friend S, who doesn't know when she'll see what's left of her family. For my friend H, who is newly married to an army officer, probably pregnant (she's not sure yet), not daring to take medication she needs in case it harms the baby, and frightened at the idea of what her husband might be doing when he's out with his soldiers tonight. She's scared he'll get hurt. She's scared he'll hurt others. Pray for all the other people in that region who need it tonight.

I only skimmed this thread, because as I said, it's been too emotionally overwhelming for me to get sucked into specific debates. But I've learnt two things from the time I've spent in volatile places with a lot of injustice and violence going on, which I want to share here: one, that when I'm at my snarkiest or most opinionated I'm usually at my safest physically (it's easy to talk about what should and shouldn't happen in Country X when my skin isn't in the game) and that staying kind in your speech is a powerful prayer for peace. Mother Teresa used to say that peace in the world is connected to peace in the family and in each person's heart, and to knowing when to keep silent. I think it's important to remember that on the spiritual level, God has given us the amazing power to do something to help people in conflict zones through our own acts of charity to each other. That charity is a kind of prayer. If I needed the proof, I saw that today, when two people who lead starkly segregated lives (one of whom has been feeling suicidal because of her experiences) were able to lift each other up just through meeting to share salads and a cup of coffee, and through wanting to hear what the other had to say even when it was hard. So every time you bite your tongue, or say something nice when you feel grumpy and it goes against instinct, offer it up. It will be felt elsewhere in the world, God makes sure of it.

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Era Might
11 hours ago, beatitude said:

I lived in Palestine/Israel for years, and may soon be returning. I generally avoid all online conversations on this topic because I have a great many friends, Palestinian and Israeli, who have experienced suffering; over the past week I've spent hours each day in contact with people there. (That's why I'm awake at nearly five in the morning.)

How big is Jerusalem? Not geographically, but would it be considered what we would call a "big city" in the US or is it more provincial/closed in?

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