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linate

jesus' death v self defense

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linate

did Jesus have a right to self defense? could he have morally fought back if he wanted to? is the portrayal of him teaching radical pacifism the right one?

one the one hand, traditional christian morality says you have a right to self defense. it usually goes on to say you can enforce it if you want. on the other hand you have Jesus teaching 'turn the other cheek' and his portrayal as a pascifist.

id probably say Jesus had a right to self defense if he wanted to. it's not like it's required that you do fight back. but dying at the hands of evil in the name of love was a sacrifice he made to defeat sin and death at its ugliest. plus it would have been bad optics to teach turn the other cheek and then fight back.

the way i explain the turn the other cheek is to say as a rule of thumb it makes sense to say an eye for an eye makes the whole world go blind, but that's not an absolute rule.

then again maybe i'm wrong and Jesus was a radical pascifist. if that's true, what do we say of the traditional chrisitan teaching that it's okay to engage in self defense? a doctrine of man?

what are your thoughts on the matter?

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chrysostom

What happens if a man starts to beat up your family, perhaps attacking your children, or maybe your grandparents? Do you stop him or do you, as a radical pacifist, let bygones be bygones?

Edited by chrysostom

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linate

well like i said i would tend to agree. i think a person could make a distinction about defending others especially one's kids, but i dont know why you couldn't apply the same logic to yourself. 

why do you think jesus didn't fight back? and, do you think he had the right?

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BarbaraTherese

Perhaps Jesus could see the inevitable.  His mission was to Israel and it was a religious mission.  As his public life continued, He knew and it was obvious that the religious leadership of Israel was seeking and would seek His death because of what He preached.  He accepted that because of what He proclaimed, death was inevitable.  He had no intention of changing what He was teaching - it was condemning and critical of the religious leadership of His times and Faith Profession.  What Jesus preached came from His Father and He remained obedient to His Father and the mission His Father gave Him even if it meant death.

When faced with potential martyrdom for one's religious beliefs, one has a choice: death and upholding one's beliefs or life and denying them.

Edited by BarbaraTherese

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Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

Jesus is god almighty and we are human beings, some are saints, some hero's and some martyrs. God knows what each one can and can't handle, but Jesus in his human form was a pacifist and defended the truth with words and not violence. In the beggining was the word and the word became flesh. Perhaps there is a time for peace and a time for war as the writer of ecclesiasticus states. But Jesus does prove that if we obey the father it is possible to be a pacifist, but also Jesus obeyed him perfectly and humans perhaps can't or not at first and we grow into it over time through many falls, we fail to only learn how to succeed.

Edited by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

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PadrePioOfPietrelcino

There is a season for everything...my thoughts on this is simply a submission of His human will to the Divine will. Yes Jesus had the right to self-defense, and the agony in the garden shows us he was worried about what was coming "let this cup pass from me." BUT, Jesus knew his mission, he knew he needed to be the innocent lamb in order for us to be redeemed. He chose not to defend himself so that those of us without a defense could have the hope to be redeemed and join Him in the beatific vision.

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Tab'le De'Bah-Rye
5 hours ago, Maximilianus said:

This is addressed in the Gospels, check Matthew out, OuR Lord gives the answer. 

Those that live by the sword die by the sword. But is the art of self defence or defence of others living by the sword, not talking about war just in general. Is he just talking about thuggery? My personal opinion is Jesus says he that destroys the body will be destroyed, of course he is talking the body of believers, and looking after our own personal bodies and the body of believers but I think also he is talking about violence in any form. Imagine a planet without violence which equals a lot less fear, anxiety and nerves. I'm quiet the hippy on this matter. Though I don't know the churches official teaching and if I did I would believe whatever she teaches. Obedience will be rewarded.

Edited by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

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BarbaraTherese

Was Jesus a pacifist when He cleared the Temple shortly before His arrest?  I do wonder if Jesus realising the potential for his clearing of the Temple took the move He did in not resisting arrest.  Once before He did take action to avoid death (thrown over a cliff).  He is certainly welcomed by the crowds when He entered Jerusalem on a donkey (fulfilment of prophecy).  The fulfilment of prophecy might have been recognised by some of the people and certainly by the Jewish religious leadership then.  That alone would have been disturbing to Rome as the Jews in Jerusalem were notorious for disturbance of the Roman status quo.  When Jesus clears the Temple, does He realise that any sort of uprising around Him would bring in the Romans to clean things up - and does Jesus decide that perhaps the best way to avoid bloodshed of the people is to accept that His Mission is concluding in execution and cruel death?  He has been aware of it certainly since the Transfiguration.

Plenty of questions..........answers in Heaven.

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Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

I don't take Jesus flipping the tables nore  having a go at the hypocrits as no pacifist. We are talking about violence yes? I think he humbly rebukes the hypocrits and the tables in the temple are ludicrous because you had to pay to pray, profit not prophet or not for profit. Unreal. Jesus was definitely a pacifist back then and still is but there will come the time of judgement, the second coming.

By the way the holy catholic church is in over 2bil debt per year which is covered by the plates and other donations.

But perhaps not all are called to be pacifists, def none are called to thuggery. Some are born chaste, some become chaste for the kingdom, others are made chaste by the world, that's the key perhaps. More to being chaste then sex.

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