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One life for another?


mzkto

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Yeah, that's right. Get over it.

and thanks for the support. not.  Catholics or non-Catholics. People are mean. Everyone with their head in the bubble that serves them well. The church and it's teachings are flawed, yet many think they are superior because they support what fits their ego. I am going with my heart. My heart tells me what I need to know. I am still looking for a passage that explains this situation where God tells us we have to lay down and die for another. Rethinking my whole Catholic upbringing and what it really means. The few on this page remind me of my mother in law...full of hate, waiting to take anyone down instead of trying to support them or help. In her case, lying, cheating to get her way...BUT she goes to mass every morning..that's what's important.

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I have a lot of non-Catholic family members & friends. Whenever someone approaches me and genuinely wants to know what the Roman Catholic Church teaches & why, I send them items by Fr. Tad.

https://www.catholiceducation.org/en/science/ethical-issues/difficult-pregnancies-precarious-choices-and-the-absolute-value-of-innocent-live.html

Difficult Pregnancies, Precarious Choices, and the Absolute Value of Innocent Live

FATHER TADEUSZ PACHOLCZYK

Some medical conditions can be made worse by becoming pregnant.

Pulmonary hypertension, for example, is often exacerbated by pregnancy: the additional blood volume of the pregnancy burdens the mother's weakened heart and, in extreme cases, can result in heart failure and the death of both mother and child.

Although direct abortion is sometimes counseled to pregnant women who face this life-threatening difficulty, such a choice can never be moral. In these circumstances, medical strategies which seek to care for both mother and child need to be pursued, as they often provide satisfactory outcomes for both.

Recent advances in obstetrics and pre-natal medicine, along with so-called "expectant management" (close monitoring of a pregnancy with tailored interventions), have enabled an ever greater number of these high-risk pregnancies to be managed at least until the child reaches viability. Labor can then be induced or a C-section delivery can be scheduled. This ordinarily allows both mother and child to be saved.

An April 2010 research study showed impressive survival rates for pregnant mothers with pulmonary hypertension. This was achieved by combining multi-specialty collaboration with planned and managed delivery. The results, published in the British Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology (BJOG), indicated that all nine of the patients in the small study group survived along with their unborn children.

Nevertheless, there are times when our best medical efforts to save both mother and child will fail, and we face the heart-wrenching situation where nature may have to take its course. In these circumstances, some ask: Wouldn't a direct abortion be permissible to save the mother (for example, a suction curettage procedure, a common form of abortion where the fetus is often dismembered and parts are evacuated from the uterus)?

An analogy can help us grasp the unacceptability of direct abortion in a situation like this.

Let's suppose that several firefighters enter a burning building to evacuate a child trapped on the 3rd floor. The firefighters discover that part of the building has collapsed onto the only stairwell, with heavy, immobile concrete girders blocking the passageway further up to the landing. There is only a small hole in the girders that the firemen would need to crawl through to get to the trapped child, but the passage is blocked by the body of a man who collapsed from smoke inhalation right in the crawl space where the firefighters need to go. He is wedged in there in such a way that his unconscious, but living, body cannot be moved aside or out of the way.

As the fire pulses dangerously around them, it becomes apparent that the only way the firefighters might be able to quickly pass would be to take a saw and cut the body of the collapsed man into pieces, causing his death, and then pull out sections of his body until a passage large enough for them to pass through had been opened up. Clearly, the firefighters would be obligated to try everything else to save the child and the collapsed man (shifting his body this way or that, trying to rouse him from his unconsciousness, etc.) but they could never choose to directly kill him by cutting up his body, even for the very good reason of gaining access to the next floor and saving the trapped child.

This example points towards an old adage sometimes cited by moralists: Better two deaths than one murder. Some might say that "murder" would not fit here, given that the term generally connotes a callous, wanton, and premeditated act of killing, instead of an urgent, emotional and difficult decision in the face of few or no alternatives. But even the strongest emotion and the greatest difficulties surrounding such cases must be focused through the lens of a similar affirmation: Better two deaths than the direct taking of an innocent life.

Directly killing an innocent human being, even in the hopes of saving his or her mother, is an instance of engaging in an intrinsic – or absolute – evil, even if good may follow. By always repudiating the direct killing of the innocent, and acknowledging that this represents an exceptionless norm, we set in place the framework to safeguard human dignity at its root. Affirming this most basic norm leads us away from the injustice of playing God with other people's lives. These challenging "life of the mother" cases allow us to begin acknowledging some of our own limitations, and the mystery of God's greater Providence, in the realization that we may not be able to "manage" or "correct" every difficult medical situation we face.

Pulmonary hypertension, for example, is often exacerbated by pregnancy: the additional blood volume of the pregnancy burdens the mother's weakened heart and, in extreme cases, can result in heart failure and the death of both mother and child.

Although direct abortion is sometimes counseled to pregnant women who face this life-threatening difficulty, such a choice can never be moral. In these circumstances, medical strategies which seek to care for both mother and child need to be pursued, as they often provide satisfactory outcomes for both.

Recent advances in obstetrics and pre-natal medicine, along with so-called "expectant management" (close monitoring of a pregnancy with tailored interventions), have enabled an ever greater number of these high-risk pregnancies to be managed at least until the child reaches viability. Labor can then be induced or a C-section delivery can be scheduled. This ordinarily allows both mother and child to be saved.

An April 2010 research study showed impressive survival rates for pregnant mothers with pulmonary hypertension. This was achieved by combining multi-specialty collaboration with planned and managed delivery. The results, published in the British Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology (BJOG), indicated that all nine of the patients in the small study group survived along with their unborn children.

Nevertheless, there are times when our best medical efforts to save both mother and child will fail, and we face the heart-wrenching situation where nature may have to take its course. In these circumstances, some ask: Wouldn't a direct abortion be permissible to save the mother (for example, a suction curettage procedure, a common form of abortion where the fetus is often dismembered and parts are evacuated from the uterus)?

An analogy can help us grasp the unacceptability of direct abortion in a situation like this.

Let's suppose that several firefighters enter a burning building to evacuate a child trapped on the 3rd floor. The firefighters discover that part of the building has collapsed onto the only stairwell, with heavy, immobile concrete girders blocking the passageway further up to the landing. There is only a small hole in the girders that the firemen would need to crawl through to get to the trapped child, but the passage is blocked by the body of a man who collapsed from smoke inhalation right in the crawl space where the firefighters need to go. He is wedged in there in such a way that his unconscious, but living, body cannot be moved aside or out of the way.

As the fire pulses dangerously around them, it becomes apparent that the only way the firefighters might be able to quickly pass would be to take a saw and cut the body of the collapsed man into pieces, causing his death, and then pull out sections of his body until a passage large enough for them to pass through had been opened up. Clearly, the firefighters would be obligated to try everything else to save the child and the collapsed man (shifting his body this way or that, trying to rouse him from his unconsciousness, etc.) but they could never choose to directly kill him by cutting up his body, even for the very good reason of gaining access to the next floor and saving the trapped child.

This example points towards an old adage sometimes cited by moralists: Better two deaths than one murder. Some might say that "murder" would not fit here, given that the term generally connotes a callous, wanton, and premeditated act of killing, instead of an urgent, emotional and difficult decision in the face of few or no alternatives. But even the strongest emotion and the greatest difficulties surrounding such cases must be focused through the lens of a similar affirmation: Better two deaths than the direct taking of an innocent life.

Directly killing an innocent human being, even in the hopes of saving his or her mother, is an instance of engaging in an intrinsic – or absolute – evil, even if good may follow. By always repudiating the direct killing of the innocent, and acknowledging that this represents an exceptionless norm, we set in place the framework to safeguard human dignity at its root. Affirming this most basic norm leads us away from the injustice of playing God with other people's lives. These challenging "life of the mother" cases allow us to begin acknowledging some of our own limitations, and the mystery of God's greater Providence, in the realization that we may not be able to "manage" or "correct" every difficult medical situation we face.

 

Here's a whole list of bioethics articles by Fr. Tad:

http://www.madisoncatholicherald.org/bioethics/list

And here are some videos:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=fr+tad+pacholczyk+

 

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3 hours ago, mzkto said:

Yeah, that's right. Get over it.

and thanks for the support. not.  Catholics or non-Catholics. People are mean. Everyone with their head in the bubble that serves them well. The church and it's teachings are flawed, yet many think they are superior because they support what fits their ego

I do not know why you posted on the debate table.  Either strictly for affirmation or to just argue.  

I’m an atheist ex-Catholic adult.  I dont agree with the Catholics on significant issues.   But I do strive to be clear and honest.  

Look at your posts and be honest to yourself.    You value your daughter’s life more than your grandchild’s.   Is that not a fair assessment?    I have not said I disagree with that, just an honest observation .   

Edited by Anomaly
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polskieserce

Jesus Christ scarified his earthly existence for the sins of humanity.  Of the 12 apostles, John was probably the only one who made it to old age.  There was no logical earthly reason for them to give up their lives to spread Christianity.  Many of the early Christians were killed in horrendous ways.  There was no Earthly benefit for their deaths either.  Christianity is all about making enormous sacrifices for the advancement of righteousness.  Sometimes, those sacrifices may even involve our own lives.

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gabrielofsorrows

My heart breaks for you as this must be devastating to see your daughter suffer. I will keep you in prayer. Praying for a miracle for your daughter and grandbaby. Anything is possible with god! All lives are precious to him. He loves us all the same While he is sovereign of course. I am catholic and there certain things that are a mystery to me that i don't understand. It doesnt mean i dont love god, but im told we arent meant to understand everything (unfortunately)   Jesus came to save us all as we all have a choice to have a relationship with him here and in heaven. Unfortunately there is no second chance.... Its either heaven or hell. While, like i mentioned even though i dont understand why "bad things happen to good people, i know his perspective is better than mine... Again to be honest... Now what also broke my heart is see a once catholic.. Now atheist. Very sad. As believe me i won't get into my own personal life but i went through the "mill" so to speak and yet stood strong.. By the grace of God alone! Most people that know me personally cant believe how i did it... I give jesus all the credit as he captured my heart. Its like he took me by my shoulders literally and said " if you live this way... Im showing you.. There are consequences. But if you love me really love me even when you are at rock bottom in faith, believe me ge says.. I got this! Time has proven prayer is our time saver. Im here as a witness of my catholic faith. Flawed..i am, yes!  i may be broken ...but im not  destroyed. The atheist that posted on here,its so sad you bought satans lie! Cause he is after our souls, thats his mission to lead you away from christ. I pray for the person who posted about their daughter, my heart goes out to you. And for the atheist my prayers are with you as well that the holy spirit will guide your heart to Christ!peace to all.

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Whether one is an atheist or believes in a god, humans are need to use their intelligence when evaluating the morality of their acts.   It’s not reasonable for someone to suddenly believe God told them to suddenly kill all unbelievers. 

mzkto is facing a very difficult and painful situation.   Yes her heart and emotions play a part, but so does reason and logic.   

The first step is to figure out if human life is valuable,  and  then if equally valuable or not. It’s terrible to be in her position, but that is the reality she has to deal with.    

Compassion, empathy, and some reasoning about identifying and applying moral principles will help deal with this difficult circumstance. 

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fides' Jack

My condolences to all going through hard times.  I didn't see a post trying to get to the root of the question (the existence of which may or may not actually be intended by mzkto).

So, the real question of the post is, why isn't abortion moral, even when faced with extreme circumstances?  To answer this, you have to know how the Church considers whether or not any action is moral.

I'm paraphrasing this...

For any action to be moral, there are 3 considerations that must be made.  If any of these 3 are immoral, the action cannot be moral, under any additional circumstances.

1. The object chosen - this is the direct action being made.  In this case, it is killing an innocent baby.  Now, killing is sometimes permissible, and you can look in the Catechism to determine when those cases are.  However, there is no justification here, even in cases of rape and incest, or when the mother's life is in danger.  The baby does not intend harm, and so it can't be considered self-defense.  This is not moral, therefore, based on the previous statement that "if any of these 3 are immoral, the action cannot be moral", abortion is never moral.

2. The end in view or the intention - this is self explanatory.  It can be argued that those who choose abortion have a good intention, even if it's a selfish one, such as making their own lives better, or a selfless one, such as saving the life of the mother.  Since the object chosen was evil, it doesn't matter how good the intentions are.

3. The circumstances of the action - these vary in scope and size, and for some actions, can make the differences between an action being moral or immoral (i.e. voting for a lesser-of-two-evils candidate).  

There are times when it's morally permissible (though likely not moral plausible) to allow an unborn baby to die to save a mother's life.  That's not the same thing as killing the baby directly.  If you think it is the same thing, you really haven't thought through the issue, and you've likely taken on some form of philosophical errors. 

Consider this: you're being held prisoner unjustly.  Somebody comes up to you and tells you they will kill your family.  You know they have the means and the motive to do so.  They give you a chance to save them; to do so you have to commit suicide.  They tell you if you kill yourself, you save your family.  Is it morally permissible to do so?  Of course not.  Suicide is always wrong, under all circumstances (just like abortion).  If you don't kill yourself, it is not you who is killing your family, it is the murderer who actually does it.  And you bear absolutely no moral responsibility for them in that situation.  

You can't judge God for failing to live up to your own (human) notion of right and wrong.  God supersedes that.  He is above life and death, and it is His place, and not yours, to determine when someone should live or die.  For you to decide that is morally wrong.  For Him, it is absolutely His purview.  He set the rules; you can choose to abide by them, or complain about them and decide to follow your own will.  That's what this ultimately boils down to.

On 6/23/2018 at 6:58 AM, mzkto said:

The church and it's teachings are flawed, yet many think they are superior because they support what fits their ego. I am going with my heart. My heart tells me what I need to know. 

I am not superior.  I am a sinner - probably a really, really bad one.  But you must see the contradiction here: "I am following my way, and not God's, because it's what my heart tells me to do.  I decide what's right and wrong, and I am always right.  Why?  Because it feels right to me."

When times are hard, that's when having faith counts the most.  I pray I will never have to make the decision that is being argued here.  I could very easily fall and not make the decision that I'm arguing for.  Why?  Because I'm flawed human, and I sin, even when I know it's a sin.  Does that make it OK?  Not by a long shot...

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On 6/23/2018 at 8:16 AM, mzkto said:

That would be my point. Why is one life more valuable than the other? Why would the unborn child's life--a life we cannot guarantee to be a happy one, a healthy one, or without abuse, be the more valuable life to spare? I love children and this happens to be my daughter. My daughter whom I love more than anything is ill with kidney disease and has been treated for 10 months so far and was starting to show big improvements in her health when she discovered she was pregnant.  Yesterday, her doctor told her proceeding with the pregnancy could speed up the kidney disease causing renal failure.  If any of you have children, you may see another point of view. Losing your child so that one may (possibly) live. There is also the possibility of birth defects with the disease with the strong prednisone and medicine my daughter has been taking.  The kidney specialists told her over and over to not get pregnant but it happened. I am not against babies in any way. What I am against is someone telling me my daughter's life is not important to the Catholic Church-only the baby that may or may not survive and may or may not have a life with defects and struggles to live with. 

What is your daughters’s opinion on the matter?

Could she love her daughter in a similar manner you love your daughter?

Have you demonstrated how fiercely  a mother can love with your powerful love?

Do you love your daughter even though she’s ill, is unhappy, may have made a mistake in getting pregnant?

I don’t think you really are mad at religion, or even God. 

I think you’re mad, upset, hurt, disappointed, sad, fearful, and overwhelmed at the situation you, your daughter, your grandchild, and your family, are all in.   

Of course you would prefer your daughter would continue to get better and didn’t have added risks to her health.  There are no guarantees for any of us, only acts of kindness and hope.  Don’t act against either.  

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This has nothing to do with being mad..as you suggest....please stop making it worse. If someone can tell me how to delete my account I would be glad to do so.

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There is no way to delete an account. The only thing you can do is stop checking the page - and if you receive e-mail notifications, you can change that so you don't get them any more. 

Go in peace. 

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tinytherese

I'm sorry that your family is going through this. I'll pray for you all.

With all do respect though, this is the Debate Table, so expect to have people with different opinions than you. Simply disagreeing with someone is not arrogant. If someone phrases what they disagree about in a disrespectful manner, than can be arrogant. The posters on this thread have not acted this way.

I'd be happy to respectfully respond to the questions you have, but even if you didn't want to delete your account, I don't get the impression that you'd be open to what I have to say.

Years ago, when being sexually abused by my dad I was afraid that I'd get pregnant. For a brief time I was tempted on planning to have an abortion if it came to that despite my prior views on the issue. I was afraid of being silly sally-shamed, causing scandal, and looking like a hypocrit. It didn't take long for me to come to the conclusion that I wouldn't do this if I did conceive. I'd like to share my story and respond to the other points you brought up.

Edited by tinytherese
Needed to be Revised
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