Francis Must Resign if The Testimony of +Vigano is true!

[Guest]

 

1 hour ago, KnightofChrist said:

If Pope Francis is guilty of the charges +Vigano testifies to, Francis must resign because he would be an agent of Satan.

If  Vigaro's statements are found proven.........sure, Pope Francis would have been (past tense) - culpably or inculpably an agent of Satan .............and IF the statements are proven true it becomes a matter of a criminal offence charge and then subjected to a secular court of law, where judgement and penalty, if necessary, will be passed.    In the interests of The Church, he probably would resign.  Certainly, my Archbishop (Wilson) has resigned as Archbishop of Adelaide due to the furore within The Church in Adelaide surrounding his conviction by a secular court for sexual abuse cover up.  He proclaims his innocence but as done the right thing.  I suspect Pope Francis would be of the same mind if he was convicted of crime.

However, IF Vigano's testimony is found unsupported/groundless, then we can drop the subject - but I bet we don't nor the media either, both secular and some 'Catholic' media.  For media, it would be a far too divisive and sensationalist story to let it go feeding fuel into the fire of ant-Francis Catholics.  For some Catholics and those who have no time for Pope Francis, there would be no letting go either using media reports as supports and references.  I dont think one needs to be reading Phatmass for long to know when a poster is likely to be for or against Pope Francis and Vatican II as well i.e. to know where a member is likely to be coming from on some subjects, the bias or leaning.  I am a fan of both Vatican II and Pope Francis - my leaning.

I am glad Pope Francis has remained serene and silent in the face of the Vigano accusations.  No matter what he said, it would have been fuel for division and sensationalist reporting.  To date anyway, I have not read anything in media interpreting serene and silent Pope Francis and the Vigano accusations...........but then media has so many outlets, I very easily could have missed it.

I think that the time is now for forensic investigators to discern the veracity of the statements by Vigano.

 

The abuses and the abuse crisis in The Church is indeed a work of Satan.  As to the agents of Satan..........sometimes I wonder about that.

[Ash Wednesday]

I've seen two extremes in all this on those internets:

1. "Pope Francis is an evil modernist with malicious intent, Vigano is a living saint" (complete with ridiculous photoshops of the Pope looking angry and surrounded by explosions and flames.)

2. "How dare you criticize Pope Francis! Pope Francis is great and never does anything wrong! Vigano and his followers just have an axe to grind!" (complete with labels being thrown around that it's all those nasty, bitter, hate filled "hard line conservatives" -- reducing concerned people to a mere political group.)

As a moderator, I've actually had people report posts for "criticism of the pope." That's not how it works. Canon law allows for the faithful to express their opinions, and at times that will involve criticism or opinions as far as what they think a pope should do. The important thing is to do it with charity ("with reverence towards their pastors") and to not incite hatred. 

All in all, a healthy and charitable debate about this among the faithful is allowed either way. Some differences in opinion and wiggle room is allowed, but most importantly we must pray for the Holy Father, and Vigano, and each other.

Quote

Can. 212 §1. Conscious of their own responsibility, the Christian faithful are bound to follow with Christian obedience those things which the sacred pastors, inasmuch as they represent Christ, declare as teachers of the faith or establish as rulers of the Church.

§2. The Christian faithful are free to make known to the pastors of the Church their needs, especially spiritual ones, and their desires.

§3. According to the knowledge, competence, and prestige which they possess, they have the right and even at times the duty to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church and to make their opinion known to the rest of the Christian faithful, without prejudice to the integrity of faith and morals, with reverence toward their pastors, and attentive to common advantage and the dignity of persons.

 

Full text of the rights and obligations of the faithful here.

THE OBLIGATIONS AND RIGHTS OF ALL THE CHRISTIAN FAITHFUL (Cann. 208 - 223)http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_PU.HTM

 

Personally I've probably agreed with Father Dwight Longenecker's takes the most. More or less tempering his readers to be realistic about what's going to happen, but to not despair and man up. 

https://dwightlongenecker.com/the-sex-abuse-crisis-get-real/

https://dwightlongenecker.com/discouraged-catholics-man-up/

(I think someone posted at least the second article elsewhere but it's worth being posted again)

Quote

Finally, remember that evil always eventually collapses in on itself. This is because evil is a lie and a lie has no internal support structure. Evil is always something beautiful, good and true that is either distorted or being destroyed. It may seem substantial, but it is a fleeting shadow. It is an dissonant tune and an empty song. Evil and lies will always, always, always fall flat. It is a house build on shifting sand.

This is how Satan works: Because his lies have no real substance and have not inner energy or life he must keep promoting his lies and making them bigger and bigger. That is the only way he can keep them going–by exaggerating them more and more. His lies are like a corpse into which an insane undertaker keeps pumping formaldehyde and keeps caking more make up on the greenish decaying face. Eventually the lie is exposed. He overplays his hand. We see the evil for what it is, and when that happens the wicked ones roar with rage for the battle has begun.

We are at that stage now. So do not be afraid. He has overplayed his hand.

Let us get on with the task at hand!

Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!

 

[Ash Wednesday]

P.S. Hey Ash, what do YOU think happened? What do you think's going to happen? 

Me:

[catholicinsd]

I think anyone who calls His Holiness the Pope, the Supreme Pontiff "an agent of Satan" is in fact one. 

[Guest]

A question I ask myself, is why did Cardinal Vigano wait until after he was retired to make the public statements he has?  After all, his accusations are extremely serious about Church Heirarchy- by not making them public at the time, was he too covering up and allowing things to snowball?

  My other concern is that when a statement has an "if" in it, what follows is conditional on something else and in the case of Vigano, the condition would be that his statements have been investigated and confirmed as substantiated and truthful, which they are not as yet. 

Vigano is making extremely serious accusations which could have extremely serious ramifications.  His accusations must be substantiated.

"If" statements are conditional on something else.  When I hear or read an if, I take particular notice of what follows.

If the accusations against Pope Francis are investigated and substantiated as truthful, I will probably be among the first to expect Pope Francis to resign - but only then.

 

Edited September 1, 2018 by BarbaraTherese

[Guest]

...........big woops!............seems it is Archbishop Vigano and I promoted him to a Cardinal 

[Kateri89]

It’s just frustrating that all we need is the release of the dossier about McCarrick to get some answers.  If the Vatican is dedicated to transparency, why hasn’t it been released yet?  Quite frankly, I think it’s hurtful and downright rude to call on journalists to exercise professional maturity when you have all of the evidence at your fingertips that will exonerate some and indict others.  And why has the archdiocese of Washington repeatedly declined comment on matters which should have simple answers?  It’s all so insulting to the abuse victims, laity, and innocent clergy.  Based purely upon this stubbornness by many, it seems as though they don’t actually give a beaver dam about honesty, transparency, and above all holiness.

[Guest]

So many justified questions still to be answered  "There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known" Luke Chapter 12

I do think that Pope Francis had to say something to the reporters. He compliments them on professional maturity and encourages them to do their own reseaching which ethical journalism will do.   It was a way of saying something yet discouraging further questions.  He is with reporters on the plane on the way home from Chile.  The Holy Father had only read the letter while still in Chile and probably had to do his own thinking and researching about the contents.  I don't know about Pope Francis, but I am almost 73yrs of age and cannot recall what happened yesterday immediately, or sometimes not at all.  I think Pope Francis would have been absolutely floored and in shock over the statements.

Pope Francis did state to the reporters on the plane that he might make further comments at a later date and seems rather obvious, probably after he had had more time to think and do his own researching.

I think that out of sorrow and respect, complete transparency (re the abuse crisis) is essential and yes, most definitely, is owed and a just debt to to the abuse victims most especially-  and to laity as well as  innocent religious and innocent clergy.

Edited September 1, 2018 by BarbaraTherese

[Guest]

A poblem could be that releasing of documentation related to the crisis might not be as simple as it sounds.  I am thinking of accusations never proven etc........such matters perhaps in documentation that should be released.  Mud does stick especially if it mentions a priest or priests who were never found guilty.  I am not saying that such is so, but a potential only, something to be taken into consideration.- as possibility.

 

[Guest]

Of course anything that might compromise the innocent could be blocked out.  Just thought of that, 3 hrs later.

 

[KnightofChrist]

18 hours ago, catholicinsd said:

I think anyone who calls His Holiness the Pope, the Supreme Pontiff "an agent of Satan" is in fact one. 

Sodomic rape is a sin that crys up to heaven. It is better to be drowned in the sea than to scandalize the young. Protecting those that commit these grave sins is extremely unholy and demonic for any individual. Even if that individual sits on the chair of Peter. The high priest who sat on the chair of Moses acted as an agent of Satan when he had Christ put to death. So too did the apostle Judas. Holding an holy office does not mean that the individual cannot act as an agent of Satan. Various popes, cardinals, and bishops have done so though out history.  Even some Saints believe the Antichrist will sit on the chair of Peter, but they are not agents of Satan.

[Ash Wednesday]

10 hours ago, BarbaraTherese said:

A question I ask myself, is why did Cardinal Vigano wait until after he was retired to make the public statements he has?  After all, his accusations are extremely serious about Church Heirarchy- by not making them public at the time, was he too covering up and allowing things to snowball?

For whatever reason, people do sit on things and hide secrets for years -- out of fear, embarrassment, or just simply not wanting to deal with the fallout once they do. I get the sense that in the Vatican and in Curia culture it's wrong to "rock the boat" and it philters on down (dUSt, why the "philter" on THAT word? ) -- and I don't even mean that just today or whoever happens to be pope -- it's probably been a thing for centuries. I get the sense that any secrets, scandals, dirty laundry or power struggles are often covered up and kept secret to try to keep up appearances and not scandalize the faithful. (I guess that's why I don't put a lot of stock into various clergy photo ops that people throw around depending on whose side they're on.) 

But... Luke 8:17 
"For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open." If not in this life, certainly the next one.

Even now the Church is incredibly uncomfortable having this all being played out in public. Vigano went into hiding, the Pope's been quiet, Benedict doesn't want to get involved or say anything, a lot of the U.S. cardinals and figures that were involved by any association went completely quiet. Though I certainly don't expect any kneejerk response from anyone right away.

So there's going to be a lot of questions, will there ever be any answers? I'm not sure if we'll ever know. If history is any indication, I'm guessing a case of "he said, he said."

[KnightofChrist]

+Vigano said since that he is an old man and may not live much longer he wanted to be able to stand before God with a free conscience. Which tells me he knew he is guilty of cover up too, but seems to be repenting of that by his pubic testimony. 

[Ash Wednesday]

I'll tell you this much, I won't be here for the alphabet soup mainstream media's reporting on it. I do not trust them one bit. 

[KnightofChrist]

6 minutes ago, Ash Wednesday said:

I'll tell you this much, I won't be here for the alphabet soup mainstream media's reporting on it. I do not trust them one bit. 

What I've seen from them is mostly attacks on +Vigano or in some way to discredit. And articles that this is just a traditional/conservative insurgency trying to take down Francis. Even articles that seem to say his left leaning agenda is more important than covering up abuse. Nothing like how they reported on abuse during Benedict XVI. I can't imagine how they would have reacted if Benedict refused to answer any questions if someone like +Vigano made a testimony against him.