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Josh

Pope Francis: Former popes ignored mercy in using ‘inhuman’ death penalty

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Josh

Pope Francis today said that popes “in past centuries” ignored “the primacy of mercy over justice” in using the death penalty, which he called an “inhuman form of punishment” that is now “always inadmissible.” 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.lifesitenews.com/mobile/news/pope-francis-former-popes-ignored-mercy-in-using-inhuman-death-penalty

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Lilllabettt
6 minutes ago, Josh said:

Pope Francis today said that popes “in past centuries” ignored “the primacy of mercy over justice” in using the death penalty, which he called an “inhuman form of punishment” that is now “always inadmissible.” 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.lifesitenews.com/mobile/news/pope-francis-former-popes-ignored-mercy-in-using-inhuman-death-penalty

I have to admit that the whole death penalty thing is very challenging and to me, and causes me to question my faith more than anything else.

For the record I support the full abolition of the death penalty in the United States. 

However. El Chapo escaped a maximum security prison. Three years ago he did it again. People died. I believe he is held in solitary confinement in the U.S. now (a fate crueler than death imo) but if he is ever mixed into the population I have no doubt he will continue to orchestrate the murders of inmates and judges from inside.

This is just one example. 

There are many places in the world there isn't the means to securely hold a dangerous criminal. I know this, everyone does. Except the Pope?

And now, the Pope says "the Magisterium" views life imprisonment as a death penalty in disguise- so its also inadmissible?

 

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Josh

Yeah I feel you. My gut reaction is to want to use the death penalty on people who murder. It's challenging for me to accept as well. Although I will accept it cause I do everything else. So I mise well this. I got my popcorn. I'm kinda a Catholic nerd now. I listen to Patrick Madrid and Relevant Radio. I love seeing him and Doctor Taylor and all these guys heads spin. Nothing but love for them but I don't really like them and I know they don't like me. Not that we met but if we did ect ect

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Lilllabettt
5 minutes ago, Josh said:

Yeah I feel you. My gut reaction is to want to use the death penalty on people who murder. It's challenging for me to accept as well. Although I will accept it cause I do everything else. So I mise well this. I got my popcorn. I'm kinda a Catholic nerd now. I listen to Patrick Madrid and Relevant Radio. I love seeing him and Doctor Taylor and all these guys heads spin. Nothing but love for them but I don't really like them and I know they don't like me. Not that we met but if we did ect ect

Meh why listen to people you dont like. I listen to Relevant Radio for the live rosary but not much else.

I have no problem giving up the death penalty as I do see it as barbaric.  I dont have the taste for vengeance.  But I really struggle to accept the rationale hes claiming for what hes saying. It just seems plainly wrong to me, on the face of it. And yet its printed in the catechism. Which is supposed to apply to the whole church. 

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Josh

I actually enjoy Patrick's show a lot of the times. I got love for him. I think that's how it is in life often. You can love people but not really like them. He just says things sometimes that make my skin crawl. But I know I would do the same to him.

If a person killed someone I loved I would feel vengeance. I would want them to die. I might end up trying to kill them myself. But if this is what we have to believe now as Catholics I will I guess. I can make sense of it in my mind. God Bless Pope Francis but I'm not a huge fan. I don't like how he's handled the sex abuse stuff. Although I'm trash and he's a million times better person than me. So again God Bless him. This issue won't cause me to be a cafeteria Catholic. 

Edited by Josh

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Lilllabettt
7 minutes ago, Josh said:

This issue won't cause me to be a cafeteria Catholic. 

I hope it doesn't me either. Pray for me. 

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KnightofChrist
8 hours ago, Josh said:

It's a church teaching now. Accept it or don't present yourself to Communion.

What the Church has always taught cannot be wrong. Truth does not change.

I'm going to keep receiving communion and believe what the Church has always taught.

 

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Jack4
9 hours ago, Josh said:

It's a church teaching now. Accept it or don't present yourself to Communion.

Wrong.

"The individual doctrine which the Catechism presents receive no other weight than that which they already possess." - Then-Cardinal Ratzinger source 

So how much authority does that new CCC para have?  As much as its source - a speech.

Re: Communion, Ratzinger again:

" Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia."source

 

 

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Josh
3 hours ago, KnightofChrist said:

What the Church has always taught cannot be wrong. Truth does not change.

I'm going to keep receiving communion and believe what the Church has always taught.

 

The Church used to teach slavery was permissible. Let me guess you still believe in that? Honestly wouldn't be surprised. 

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KnightofChrist
2 hours ago, Josh said:

The Church used to teach slavery was permissible. Let me guess you still believe in that? Honestly wouldn't be surprised. 

The Church has always condemned slavery as you understand it. As soon as the Pope heard of the enslavement of Africans he condemned the practice. The 'slavery' the Church permitted is not even the same. We've had this discussion before. 

I cannot help you have made Pope Francis an idol god, nor can I help you reject Divine Revelation. Saint Paul guided by the Holy Ghost, makes perfectly clear God Himself gives the state the sword to put the wicked to death. 

Pope Francis cannot overturn God's will. When He returns and changes His teaching I will follow. Of course when He returns there will be no need for punishment after the wicked are condemned to hell. Still, only God can give us a new doctrine. The Pope cannot change teaching only pass it down unchanged.

IMG_20181220_101420.jpg.f916d15dd8a27357cdc3f7f72932c037.jpg

 

 

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Josh
9 hours ago, KnightofChrist said:

The Church has always condemned slavery as you understand it. As soon as the Pope heard of the enslavement of Africans he condemned the practice. The 'slavery' the Church permitted is not even the same. We've had this discussion before. 

I'm talking about slavery. Slavery is slavery to me. So like I said you still believe in 'Slavery'. Not surprised a bit. The Church has changed on this wether you like it or not.

 

9 hours ago, KnightofChrist said:

I cannot help you have made Pope Francis an idol god, nor can I help you reject Divine Revelation. Saint Paul guided by the Holy Ghost, makes perfectly clear God Himself gives the state the sword to put the wicked to death. 

Haha that's funny. I don't even care for this pope. He did nothing to shine light on the cover-up of sexual abusers just like the popes before him. I got love for him but it stops there. The Catechism has changed on the death penalty. You reject the Churches teaching. Saint Paul also told slaves to be submissive to their masters. We know that's wrong now too. No disrespect to Paul. Doctrine develops.

Edited by Josh

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Jack4

On slavery, a friend once said that in most societies in which slavery existed, it was a temporary condition that people entered into more or less voluntarily, for example, if they owed a huge debt that they couldn't pay back, they might agree to become slaves for a period of 10 years on the condition that at the end of the 10 years, the debt will be forgiven. It was not an inherited condition that passed from father to son for generations, slaves had the ability to purchase their freedom and they had legal rights if their masters abused or mistreated them, the law held that the contract was void and the slave was freed. Only prisoners of war were ever made slaves against their will.

Moreover, in most societies, slaves are considered to be almost like members of the family, it was not unusual in ancient Rome for slaves offered their freedom to refuse to accept it and continue serving the same family, they did this voluntarily because there were genuine bonds of warmth and affection between master and slave, it was a lifestyle to which they had grown accustomed.

Involuntary, race-based chattel slavery that existed as an inherited condition from one generation to the next and from which one could never escape is definitely wrong, but it is also something that has never existed anywhere else except the antebellum south.'

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