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Sin of detraction

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little2add

Is some the negative talk on this site about church officials  and catholic faith a sin?

In Roman Catholic theology, detraction is the sin of revealing another person's real faults to a third person without a valid reason, thereby lessening the reputation of that person.

My mother often told me as a lad growing up “ if you don’t have anything good to say about someone , don’t say anything “

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BarbaraTherese

Catholic Catechism  http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm

Respect for the souls of others: scandal

2284 Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor's tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense.

2285 Scandal takes on a particular gravity by reason of the authority of those who cause it or the weakness of those who are scandalized. It prompted our Lord to utter this curse: "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."86 Scandal is grave when given by those who by nature or office are obliged to teach and educate others. Jesus reproaches the scribes and Pharisees on this account: he likens them to wolves in sheep's clothing.87

2286 Scandal can be provoked by laws or institutions, by fashion or opinion.

Therefore, they are guilty of scandal who establish laws or social structures leading to the decline of morals and the corruption of religious practice, or to "social conditions that, intentionally or not, make Christian conduct and obedience to the Commandments difficult and practically impossible."88 This is also true of business leaders who make rules encouraging fraud, teachers who provoke their children to anger,89 or manipulators of public opinion who turn it away from moral values.

2287 Anyone who uses the power at his disposal in such a way that it leads others to do wrong becomes guilty of scandal and responsible for the evil that he has directly or indirectly encouraged. "Temptations to sin are sure to come; but woe to him by whom they come!"90

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Josh
19 minutes ago, BarbaraTherese said:

Catholic Catechism  http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm

Respect for the souls of others: scandal

2284 Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor's tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense.

2285 Scandal takes on a particular gravity by reason of the authority of those who cause it or the weakness of those who are scandalized. It prompted our Lord to utter this curse: "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."86 Scandal is grave when given by those who by nature or office are obliged to teach and educate others. Jesus reproaches the scribes and Pharisees on this account: he likens them to wolves in sheep's clothing.87

2286 Scandal can be provoked by laws or institutions, by fashion or opinion.

Therefore, they are guilty of scandal who establish laws or social structures leading to the decline of morals and the corruption of religious practice, or to "social conditions that, intentionally or not, make Christian conduct and obedience to the Commandments difficult and practically impossible."88 This is also true of business leaders who make rules encouraging fraud, teachers who provoke their children to anger,89 or manipulators of public opinion who turn it away from moral values.

2287 Anyone who uses the power at his disposal in such a way that it leads others to do wrong becomes guilty of scandal and responsible for the evil that he has directly or indirectly encouraged. "Temptations to sin are sure to come; but woe to him by whom they come!"90

If anyone is "scandalized" by the videos I've posted take it up with Taylor Marshal ect 

As for me I'm scandalized by the heiarchy of the Church all the way up to the Pope. If you want everyone to be hush hush and not say anything about this I don't know what to tell you. I've watched every video I've posted. They're all very informative. I refuse to have my head buried in the sand. I don't know how that's even an option at this point. I'm on the brink of finding a new church. To many people in this one are way to obsessed with keeping everything a secret even when it has to do with minors and kids being raped.

Edited by Josh

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Anomaly

Josh, 

I understand your feelings about the scandals, but you post the videos without comments or your perspective or suggestions.   It seems as if you’re just engaging in gossip. There is often more to the story and in a contentious issue like this, two different sides can easily spin things is a certain way.  There is a difference between being open minded and fair, vs sticking your head in the sand to pretend nothing bad happened / or accusations that certain persons acted with full knowledge and consent to commit evil.   

Edited by Anomaly

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Josh
1 hour ago, Anomaly said:

Josh, 

I understand your feelings about the scandals, but you post the videos without comments or your perspective or suggestions.   It seems as if you’re just engaging in gossip. There is often more to the story and in a contentious issue like this, two different sides can easily spin things is a certain way.  There is a difference between being open minded and fair, vs sticking your head in the sand to pretend nothing bad happened / or accusations that certain persons acted with full knowledge and consent to commit evil.   

Have you watched them? Not really expecting you would care being an atheist. I mean that with no disrespect but I figure you would have no desire to dig in. If I was atheist I wouldn't.

The videos by Taylor Marshal I posted are calm and provide facts and not gossip. I don't even care for him from past issues. I've found him condescending and self righteous. But his videos on this are informative. He's a devout Catholic father of 8. I posted them so if people want to know what's going on they can find out.

A lot of people probably have already seen them but some may be like me (Haven't seen them) and are not content just going along with this and not learning what's going on beneath the surface level. I learned a lot. Patrick Coffin is in one of them. He used to host Catholic Answers Live. I just watched an episode of C.A with him in it. He's mainstream. This is all really drastic. I'm worried that close family who still practice the faith are going to stop. You cannot cover for people who rape kids on this big of a scale and expect people to stay in your church.

 

Edited by Josh

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Anomaly

I left Catholicism because I don’t believe in a God, not because of the scandals and stuff I personally witnessed.  No, I didn’t watch, but nothing in them would surprise me.   I’ve seen things myself during my 50+ years involved in the Church.

No human institution is perfect.  That is not excusing or ignoring the evil perpetrated by Catholic clergy on children.  But if you choose to fixate on the flaws, then you dismiss and ignore the good things the religion provides.   

Instead of threatening to leave the Church over this, you should be clamoring for them to change and throw out the bad priests and clergy, change how things are handled. Leaving is just cutting off your nose to spite your face.   Not helpful to yourself or to others, and does nothing to get bad priests out. 

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Josh
24 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

I left Catholicism because I don’t believe in a God

Curious what led you to stop believing? If too personal no big deal.

 

25 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

Instead of threatening to leave the Church over this

I know it may come off as a threat but it's not. It's just where I'm at. No one would notice besides God if I join another church. The cover-up is what gets to me. The abuse is horrible but the cover-up pushes me over the edge.

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BarbaraTherese

 

Either our Catholic Church is that founded by Jesus with Him as Head and Foundation - and which the gates of Hell shall not prevail, or it is not.  Either our Faith is invested in the human element of The Church, or it is invested in Jesus, who is God:

"Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.Go, therefore, 12 and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. 13 And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age." (Matthew Ch28)

.

Quote

Luke Chapter 17 "He said to his disciples, "Things that cause sin will inevitably occur, but woe to the person through whom they occur." http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PX0.HTM

 

 

The Church is in a dreadful state just now - not for the first time and probably not for the last.

I think there is a danger now of thinking that the whole Church is corrupt in some way.  I do think that that is a false assessment and largely dependant on gossip and media sources. 

Am I looking for negative type sources and investing in them? or am I looking for signs of Hope and encouragement and investing in Hope and being encouraged and encouraging?

 

A balanced perspective from Australia from The Sydney Morning Herald - a popular daily Australian secular newspaper:

 

Quote

https://www.smh.com.au/national/revitalised-catholic-church-attracting-more-trainee-priests-20150429-1mw16v.html

"Revitalised Catholic Church attracting more trainee priests

Despite a series of sex abuse scandals, the Catholic Church has seen a renewed interest in training for the priesthood." 

Excerpt: "The logical conclusion would be a priesthood and church in decline. Yet a different and surprising picture is emerging, partly demonstrated each morning at 6.45am in a pocket of Carlton, where in the bluestone chapel at Corpus Christi, every pew is filled by men called to the priesthood.

"This turnaround has been a real surprise I think to us, especially with the bad publicity," says Lane. "But in fact the more bad publicity we've had, the more students we get.

"I think it probably works in a reverse way. It says that we're trying to do something about the problems we've got."

Beyond the gates of Corpus Christi, the Catholic landscape is also surprising. Anecdotally, some parishes are even reporting bigger attendances. Something unexpected is going on."

 

 

The motivations for covering up abuse probably are many - one just might be :

"If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he wrongs you seven times in one day and returns to you seven times saying, 'I am sorry,' you should forgive him." (Luke Ch17)

It would be, I think, a misunderstanding of the above.  We should be forgiving, but that does not mean that we are not protective of children.  I do think that there has been a misunderstanding of poedaphilia in our priesthood in not grasping that offenders are most likely to re-offend.  Hence when an offending priest said "I am sorry and will never do it again", that might have been believed and allowing the offender to continue as a priest in another parish was viewed as an act of forgiveness.  I certainly cannot understand where cover ups have occured when a priest has continued to offend in other parishes......as stated, motivations could be many and in some cases would be an attempt to 'protect' The Church.

The Church is wiser now.......at least that is my concept, my Hope and prayer.

Edited by BarbaraTherese

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BarbaraTherese
12 hours ago, Josh said:

If anyone is "scandalized" by the videos I've posted take it up with Taylor Marshal ect 

As for me I'm scandalized by the heiarchy of the Church all the way up to the Pope. If you want everyone to be hush hush and not say anything about this I don't know what to tell you. I've watched every video I've posted. They're all very informative. I refuse to have my head buried in the sand. I don't know how that's even an option at this point. I'm on the brink of finding a new church. To many people in this one are way to obsessed with keeping everything a secret even when it has to do with minors and kids being raped.

It is not  a question of hushing things up or burying one's head in the sand.  Rather for me it is a question of acknowledging the dreadful things that have happened, not engaging in a sort of cover up myself, while not restricting reading matter and other sources to negative type reporting and spreading of such sources alone.  I have watched the videos you have posted.

I do ask myself why you are posting what you have (as well as asking myself the same question always).  

There are signs of Hope and I want to be alert to such signs wherever they might occur and be reported.  Jesus has promised to be with us until the end of time and that is a basis for Hope at all times.

Edited by BarbaraTherese

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cruciatacara

@Josh I try not to get involved in contentious threads, but I appreciate you posting these videos. For me, the cover-up is also the main concern. Any institution has flaws, yes, but covering them up allows them to perpetuate. Now we are learning about priest abuse of nuns in India - for decades! I know there are good priests, I have met and known many of them - but cover-ups allow the bad ones to thrive, and like rotten apples, they make the whole basket of apples seem rotten. The bad ones need to be identified and removed from the basket where there are still good ones. The Church is damaging herself if she does not actively seek out and remove the offenders and loses her right to be the moral arbiter for her members.

These videos remind us of the evil that still needs to be addressed. I don't see them as scandal but as information to help us remain vigilant against evil, no matter where it is.

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little2add
5 hours ago, Josh said:

 

This doesn’t address the problem, calling all clergy, top to bottom corrupt is redicuious and no, I haven’t watched it and don’t plan to either

 

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Jack4
4 hours ago, cruciatacara said:

priest abuse of nuns in India - for decades!

Source, please? Bp. Franco Mulakkal a single bishop accused of abusing a single nun multiple times over two years. I'm not minimising the gravity of this, but I would be glad if you could back up that assertion. 

On 1/2/2019 at 4:48 AM, little2add said:

Is some the negative talk on this site about church officials  and catholic faith a sin?

In Roman Catholic theology, detraction is the sin of revealing another person's real faults to a third person without a valid reason, thereby lessening the reputation of that person.

My mother often told me as a lad growing up “ if you don’t have anything good to say about someone , don’t say anything “

 

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3033.htm

That was St Thomas.

 

Now, from a friend:

Quote

 

Love is not always nice. It may require harsh language and at times rebuke. But that said, I think we can agree we tend to use that to justify harsh language and abuse more often than is actually justified by love.

Of course libel and slander are sins both against charity and truth. But even detraction (saying something bad about someone else that is true) is a sin, unless done out of charity for a good reason (for example, telling my sister her boyfriend is cheating on her, in order to spare her from an unhealthy relationship)

Public figures are hardcases here. We should care about whether, e.g., a politician is corrupt or virtuous. I think too we can make a distinction between interpreting a person in the best possible light, and recognizing the actual perception people have of that person.

So with Trump, as to his person, I should, as far as I can truthfully, interpret his actions and statements charitably, and not assume the worst possible motives. But I should recognize that, regardless of his intentions or his intended meaning, actions and statements of his will have ill effects and be understood in worse lights. So if Trump says something that could be taken as endorsing white nationalism, but could be understood differently, then in my judgment of his person, I should assume the more benign interpretation, but I must recognize that his words would also promote, intentionally or not, white nationalism and I should denounce that. So if he said "I am a nationalist" I can both truthfully say "he probably means only that he is patriotic" and "Nevertheless, nationalism is a dangerous error, and he should distance himself from supporting it"

It can be a fine line at times. Also, sometimes a person makes manifest their intention in an uncontrovertible manner. We should judge charitably, not naively.

 


 

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