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little2add

Sin of detraction

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BarbaraTherese

https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/do-the-right-thing/201808/separating-facts-about-clergy-abuse-fiction

Excerpt "The good news is that progress is being made to ensure that children are safe but vigilance is always needed and good data and reason needs to take precedent over emotion and hysteria if we truly want to keep children and families safe from abuse in the Church as well as in all institutions where adults and children interact. "

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2010/mar/11/catholic-abuse-priests

Excerpt:  "The Catholic figures show that between about 4% of priests and deacons serving in the US between 1950 and 2002 had been accused of sexual abuse of someone under 18. In this country, the figure was a 10th of that: 0.4% But whereas the victims in the general population are overwhelmingly female, the pattern among American Catholic priests was quite different. Four out of five of their victims were male. Most were adolescents: two out of five were 14 or over; 15% were under 10."................

.............."There are, however, some fragments of figures from the outside world suggesting that not many professions do better. Last year, it was reported that half of the girls fostered in social democratic Sweden in the 50s and 60s had been abused; according to Camila Batmanghelidjh 550,000 children are reported to the social services in this country every year.

So why the concentration on Catholic priests and brothers? Perhaps I am unduly cynical, but I believe that all institutions attempt to cover up institutional wrongdoing although the Roman Catholic church has had a higher opinion of itself than most, and thus a greater tendency to lie about these things. Because it is an extremely authoritarian institution at least within the hierarchy, it is also one where there were few checks and balances on the misbehaviour of the powerful. The scandal has been loudest and most damaging in Ireland, because it came along just at the moment when the church was losing its power over society at large, and where it was no longer able to cover up what had happened, but still willing to try. Much the same is true in the diocese of Boston which was bankrupted by the scandal.

It doesn't seem to be true, though, that this was a problem spread by Irish priests around the world, as some traditionalists have argued. Certainly, the geographical spread across the US was fairly even, and not concentrated in areas of high Irish settlement and tradition. But in Ireland the state was happy to hand over the problem of unwanted children to the church.

Certainly the safeguards against paedophilia in the priesthood are now among the tightest in the world. That won't stop a steady trickle of scandals; but I think that objectively your child is less likely to be abused by a Catholic or Anglican priest in the west today than by the members of almost any other profession."

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Josh

People like you can't comprehend the fact that the biggest problem in all this is the COVER-UP. The abuse by the priests is horrible. But it's the secrecy that is what causes people to leave. The secrecy that allowed McCarrick to become Cardinal and be in charge of making sure kids are safe when everyone knew what he was up to. Anyways we don't see eye to eye on this. Im done going back n forth with you. I respect you I just don't agree with you. And I will post whatever I like regardless of what you say. Block me if you want. God Bless.

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BarbaraTherese

____________________________

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a8.htm

"Corrupt from top to bottom" is an expression I take to mean that the whole Church is corrupt and that is not the truth:

Catholic Catechism: "2465 The Old Testament attests that God is the source of all truth. His Word is truth. His Law is truth. His "faithfulness endures to all generations."255 Since God is "true," the members of his people are called to live in the truth.256"

2464 The eighth commandment forbids misrepresenting the truth in our relations with others. This moral prescription flows from the vocation of the holy people to bear witness to their God who is the truth and wills the truth. Offenses against the truth express by word or deed a refusal to commit oneself to moral uprightness: they are fundamental infidelities to God and, in this sense, they undermine the foundations of the covenant.

I do grasp that the cover ups in The Church are almost as bad as the abuse - as the paragraph in my previous posts attests.  You have misinterpreted me.  I have no intention of blocking you - I pray that I will stand up for the truth in any situation always, Grace prevailing.

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Josh

You edited the cover-up part in after I had posted. And I stand by this video and agree with it. Not a huge Voris fan but I respect his investigative work and videos like this.

 

Edited by Josh

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BarbaraTherese

 Catholic Catechism  http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a8.htm

2464 The eighth commandment forbids misrepresenting the truth in our relations with others. This moral prescription flows from the vocation of the holy people to bear witness to their God who is the truth and wills the truth. Offenses against the truth express by word or deed a refusal to commit oneself to moral uprightness: they are fundamental infidelities to God and, in this sense, they undermine the foundations of the covenant.

I understand that "Corrupt from top to bottom" means that the whole Church hierarchy is corrupt, or have I misunderstood?  The whole Church hierarchy is not corrupt.  And I do indeed grasp the seriousness of the cover ups, as I have expressed in previous posts.   If I engaged in not reporting the truth of matters and/or being dedicated to same..........then I would be guilty of cover up myself.

Are accusations of "cover up" a projection?

 

Quote

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2010/mar/11/catholic-abuse-priests There are, however, some fragments of figures from the outside world suggesting that not many professions do better. Last year, it was reported that half of the girls fostered in social democratic Sweden in the 50s and 60s had been abused; according to Camila Batmanghelidjh 550,000 children are reported to the social services in this country every year.

So why the concentration on Catholic priests and brothers? Perhaps I am unduly cynical, but I believe that all institutions attempt to cover up institutional wrongdoing although the Roman Catholic church has had a higher opinion of itself than most, and thus a greater tendency to lie about these things. Because it is an extremely authoritarian institution at least within the hierarchy, it is also one where there were few checks and balances on the misbehaviour of the powerful. The scandal has been loudest and most damaging in Ireland, because it came along just at the moment when the church was losing its power over society at large, and where it was no longer able to cover up what had happened, but still willing to try. Much the same is true in the diocese of Boston which was bankrupted by the scandal.

It doesn't seem to be true, though, that this was a problem spread by Irish priests around the world, as some traditionalists have argued. Certainly, the geographical spread across the US was fairly even, and not concentrated in areas of high Irish settlement and tradition. But in Ireland the state was happy to hand over the problem of unwanted children to the church.

Certainly the safeguards against paedophilia in the priesthood are now among the tightest in the world. That won't stop a steady trickle of scandals; but I think that objectively your child is less likely to be abused by a Catholic or Anglican priest in the west today than by the members of almost any other profession.

 

 

Quote

 

https://www.france24.com/en/20180822-vatican-church-catholic-sex-abuse-cover-scandals-around-globe-usa-chile-ireland-pope

At a glance: Catholic Church sex abuse, cover-up scandals around the globe .......... MORE on above llink.

 

 

Edited by BarbaraTherese

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little2add
2 hours ago, Josh said:

People like you can't comprehend the fact that the biggest problem in all this is the COVER-UP. The abuse by the priests is horrible. But it's the secrecy that is what causes people to leave. The secrecy that allowed McCarrick to become Cardinal and be in charge of making sure kids are safe when everyone knew what he was up to. Anyways we don't see eye to eye on this. Im done going back n forth with you. I respect you I just don't agree with you. And I will post whatever I like regardless of what you say. Block me if you want. God Bless.

This song made me think of you, Josh

your  like Just like a  “Prophet saving the world” with your words

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Lil Red
On January 2, 2019 at 1:30 PM, Josh said:

I know it may come off as a threat but it's not. It's just where I'm at. No one would notice besides God if I join another church. The cover-up is what gets to me. The abuse is crimes are horrible but the cover-up pushes me over the edge.

(my edit in red) Josh, I feel your pain precisely. My soul hurts from not only the abuse of children (which will affect them the rest of their lives), the desecration of churches, the loss of faith for so many because of these CRIMES (calling them "scandals" I believe obfuscates the nature of what's happened); but I get angry, like the kind of angry that makes me shake, the kind of angry that makes my voice rise and crack with emotion, I get angry of the cover-ups of priests, bishops, cardinals, and popes. They covered for one another instead of calling the f***ing police on a child rapist or abuser. They worried more about their own reputations, their own standing in society (secular or Church), the power they wielded than they were about children! 

And yes, I know the line about how these are all old cases and there's barely any new cases and besides most of these priests are dead and what does it matter now anyway. I have heard many justifications for the cover ups. And it makes me sick and reveals much about the people saying them. They were children, they were violated, and no one stood up for them and protected them, fought for them. It matters because they were children. It will always matter to fight for victims. 

On January 8, 2019 at 3:36 PM, Josh said:

People like you can't comprehend the fact that the biggest problem in all this is the COVER-UP. The abuse crimes by the priests is horrible. But it's the secrecy that is what causes people to leave. The secrecy that allowed McCarrick to become Cardinal and be in charge of making sure kids are safe when everyone knew what he was up to. 

Yes. Precisely. 

Anyway Josh, know that I understand where you're coming from. But I can't stay in that place where I was for the rest of my life. I can't stay in that bleak place of despair, bitterness, and hatred forever. And I love the Church, I do Josh. Believing in the words "Where shall I go? You have the words of eternal life." and "I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you." and "Get up and eat, else the journey will be too long for you." and "I am the bread of life, whoever comes to me will never hunger and whoever believes in me will never thirst." 

As Flannery O'Connor said of the Eucharist (paraphrased): "Well, if it's a symbol, the hell with it." I believe in the Eucharist, I believe that it is true. I may struggle, I frequently do. But I believe in Jesus. I believe in the everlasting covenant with God. I believe that the Church cannot be separated from the Eucharist and the Eucharist cannot be separated from the Church. So I believe in the Church.

If the Eucharist isn't true, then f*** it. F*** all of it and burn it down to a smoldering pile of ash.

Do you believe the Eucharist is true? 

The bishops and priests…they don't get to decide who makes up the Church. The Church isn't just made up of evil people and perverts. The Church isn't just for the rich and the powerful. The Church is people like me, and you, and drug addicts and homeless people and rich people and really good people and sort of middling people and horrible people. The Church hierarchy doesn't get to tell me that I can't be the church. And they don't get to tell you. Are you willing to let them - those who covered up, those who are evil, those who are perverts, those who are willing to turn a blind eye to victims - are you willing to let them be the Church? Or are you willing to stay and fight for this Church that we love? Fight with me, Josh. But don't let your anger turn you bitter and hard. 

Pray for me, Josh. I desperately need it. 

(apologies for the scattered thoughts)

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