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BarbaraTherese

Cardinal Pell - The Grounds for His Appeal

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KnightofChrist
9 hours ago, KnightofChrist said:

Which trial of Pell's should we take as the "truth"? Just how many trials did he have before the guilty verdict?

3. 1 found him not guilty 10-2, another was thrown out due to insufficient evidence, the last was first hung 6-6, then found him guilty 12-0.

 

 

 

 

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cruciatacara
2 hours ago, KnightofChrist said:

3. 1 found him not guilty 10-2, another was thrown out due to insufficient evidence, the last was first hung 6-6, then found him guilty 12-0.

Can you provide me with a source for the 10-2 not guilty verdict as I can't find this? Was it for the 1970s crimes or even another one? The trial for crimes in Ballarat during the 1970s was dropped so there never was a verdict. For the 1990s crimes, there have only been two trials from what I can see-the first was a hung jury, and this is not unusual for trials of serious crimes. The second jury was not told about the first verdict and they came back with a unanimous verdict of guilty. If you have more information, a source would be nice.

 

 

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cruciatacara
10 hours ago, KnightofChrist said:

The only mention of this 10-2 verdict is hearsay from unnamed sources and if it is mentioned in any reputable news outlets or sources, I have yet to find it so the claim of 'multiple sources' is unreliable.

Quote

The verdict came after a five-week retrial, after a jury in an earlier trial failed to reach an unanimous verdict. In October 2018, multiple sources close to the case told CNA that the first trial had ended with the jury deadlocked 10-2 in favor of Pell.

The actual recorded verdict was 6-6. There have only been two trials, both regarding the 1990s offences. There have been no trials for the 1970s offences (yet).

I don't understand why so many people are defending a convicted pedophile and now registered sex offender - does this happen with other convicted pedophiles? It seems only to be happening in this case because of Pell's status and importance in the Church. I'm sure other pedophiles have appealed their convictions but it didn't immediately make people think they were innocent. It's just surprising to me and screams of victim blaming by not believing the victim's claims. Pell may not ever face trial for the Ballarat abuses but the very fact that there are these additional claims of abuse from the 1970s adds weight IMO to the claims of the Cathedral abuses in the 1990s. Anyway, the jury heard the testimony and convicted him. 

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KnightofChrist

I've made no defense of pedophiles. I asked two questions, answered one my questions, and provided a link at your request. Only, it seems, to be gravely insulted. 

Pedophiles should be hung by the neck until dead. If Pell is in fact guilty of that grave crime he should be hung by the neck. 

Also I was under the impression you said people can have different opinions about this case. Now if someone has a different opinion about Pell's trial(s) they are defending pedophiles? 

As for which trial we should take as true. I answer I do not know. I'm not so quick as to reject the existence of the 10-2 trial. I've seen that reported on multiple news outlets with various political slants. I know you disagree, but no need to personally insult me. 

 

Edited by KnightofChrist

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cruciatacara
57 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said:

I've made no defense of pedophiles. I asked two questions, answered one my questions, and provided a link at your request. Only, it seems, to be gravely insulted. 

Pedophiles should be hung by the neck until dead. If Pell is in fact guilty of that grave crime he should be hung by the neck. 

Also I was under the impression you said people can have different opinions about this case. Now if someone has a different opinion about Pell's trial(s) they are defending pedophiles? 

As for which trial we should take as true. I answer I do not know. I'm not so quick as to reject the existence of the 10-2 trial. I've seen that reported on multiple news outlets with various political slants. I know you disagree, but no need to personally insult me. 

 

I certainly meant no insult or attack on you personally @KnightofChrist . I guess because I was responding to you, it might seem that way but I was actually just musing on why it seems so many people want to defend Pell when he is no different than any other convicted pedophile. I didn't mean you personally so I apologise to you if it came across that way. Pedophiles make me very angry  because I have been very involved in child advocacy for a long time, so perhaps I am more passionate in my posts than I need to be. As for the existence of the 10-2 trial - I think there might have been confusion over what the actual vote was - was it 6-6 or 10-2 or something else? I have read 6-6 but you say you have read 10-2.... in this article, all that the journalist will say is that the first jury couldn't reach a majority vote of 11-1. That might have caused some confusion as to what the vote actually was.

Quote

 

Pell’s first trial began in August 2018. Known as the “cathedral trial” in legal and journalistic circles, it lasted for five weeks.

After a week of deliberations the jurors could not reach an unanimous verdict, or even a majority verdict of 11 to one. Their distress was clear. Five of them were in tears.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/feb/27/inside-the-pell-trial-we-sat-in-court-for-months-forbidden-from-reporting-a-word

 

As for Pell, I know you don't believe it, but there have only been two trials so far (see article link above), but we weren't told of them until after the second trial verdict - due to Australia's tough gag order laws with regard to the law. They heard the 1990s cases first (Cathedral trial) and were then going to hear the 1970s cases (Ballarat trial). Until the Ballarat trial  had been heard, nothing about the Cathedral trial  was supposed to be released to the media because it would poison the jury for the Ballarat trial. Once the prosecutors decided to drop the Ballarat trial though (because of the death of a victim and some evidence being suppressed by the court), the press could provide the verdict for the Cathedral trial. That's the one that had the hung jury first and the unanimous guilty verdict second. 

I have been living in Melbourne and Ballarat both and have been very aware of the trials and outcomes, almost obsessively so because of my advocacy background (and living locally)  and this scandal within the Church has made things so horrible, not only for the victims, but also for faithful Catholics who feel betrayed by those in authority for allowing this evil to grow and flourish through cover-ups. Parents of victims have been devastated of course but even ordinary Catholics have felt conflicted between  their inherent respect for clergy, and their feelings of disgust at so many priests being revealed as sexual offenders and the hierarchy acting as enablers through cover-ups.

Anyway, nothing about my post was personally directed at you. I really do understand that this has caused great torment for a lot of Catholics, and that is why so many people are still in denial about Pell. But I can tell you that Catholics in Ballarat, and a lot in Melbourne too, who know Pell, wouldn't welcome him into their community. He isn't seen as much of a shepherd to a lot of his flock here in Victoria.

---------

One of the Ballarat victims was interviewed here:

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/mar/04/george-pell-to-be-sued-over-alleged-1970s-sexual-abuse-in-ballarat 

 

 

Edited by cruciatacara

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BarbaraTherese

Aust Bishops Conference reaction as well as statement out of Rome (https://www.vaticannews.va/en/church/news/2019-02/cardinal-pell-convicted-by-australian-court.html

Pope Francis confirms that Cardinal Pell cannot exercise public ministry https://www.vaticannews.va/en/church/news/2019-02/pope-confirms-card-pell-prohibited-from-public-ministry.html

 

 

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BarbaraTherese

Cardinal Pell to be sentenced tomorrow.  It is Tuesday 12.3.19 at 5.04pm here just now.  His appeal will be held in June 2019.

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BarbaraTherese

Cardinal Pell has been sentenced to six years jail.  There is a non parole period of 3  years and 8 months.  Commentary is that it might be a life sentence for Cardinal Pell.  He is not in good health and jail will be a real shock to his normal way of living previously.  Stress, his doctor has said, does exacerbate his health situation including his heart problems

I watched the live pre sentence comments by the judge and they might appear on youtube at some point.  Media at this point, 10.58am on Wednesday 13.3.19, is being broadcasted live.  Undoubtedly what we are viewing live today will find its way in full to youtube in due course.

The media is now focusing too on the reaction from the Vatican re the future of Cardinal Pell.

 

 

 

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BarbaraTherese

Sorry about the video in my previous post, I forgot it was live.  :blush:

The following comes from YouTube and is the quite lengthy pre sentence comments by the judge, the final minutes are the actual sentence.

 

Video of judge passing the actual sentence and the last few minutes of the above video.

 

General media comment is that we probably wont hear much from the Vatican as to the future of Cardinal Pell until after his Appeal in early June.

Edited by BarbaraTherese

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Jack4
On 3/6/2019 at 5:40 AM, cruciatacara said:

I don't understand why so many people are defending a convicted pedophile and now registered sex offender - does this happen with other convicted pedophiles? It seems only to be happening in this case because of Pell's status and importance in the Church.

 

I quote from a person who defends +Pell. You can read his reasons in his own words:

Quote

 

During the retrial, the defense demonstrated that, in order to sustain the charge that Pell had accosted and sexually abused two choirboys after Mass one Sunday, ten improbable things would have had to have happened and all within ten minutes:

• Archbishop Pell abandoned his decades-long practice of greeting congregants outside the cathedral after Mass.

• Pell, who was typically accompanied by a master of ceremonies or sacristan when he was vested for Mass, entered the carefully controlled space of the vesting sacristy alone.

• The master of ceremonies, charged with helping the archbishop disrobe while removing his own liturgical vestments, had disappeared.

• The sacristan, charged with the care of the locked sacristy, had also disappeared.

• The sacristan did not go back and forth between the sacristy and the cathedral sanctuary, removing missals and Mass vessels, as was his responsibility and consistent practice.

• The altar servers, like the sacristan, simply disappeared, rather than helping the sacristan clear the sanctuary by bringing liturgical vessels and books back to the sacristy.

• The priests who concelebrated the Mass with Pell were not in the sacristy disrobing after the ceremony.

• At least 40 people did not notice that two choirboys left the post-Mass procession.


• Two choirboys entered the sacristy, started gulping altar wine, and were accosted and abused by Archbishop Pell — while the sacristy door was open and the archbishop was in full liturgical vestments.

• The abused choirboys then entered the choir room, through two locked doors, without anyone noticing, and participated in a post-Mass rehearsal; no one asked why they had been missing for ten minutes.

Before the trial, one of the complainants died, having told his mother that he had never been assaulted. During the trial, there was no corroboration of the surviving complainant’s charges. Other choirboys (now, of course, grown), as well as the choir director and his assistant, the adult members of the choir, the master of ceremonies, and the sacristan all testified, and from their testimony we learn the following: that no one recalled any choirboys bolting from the procession after Mass; that none of those in the immediate vicinity of the alleged abuse noticed anything; that indeed nothing could have happened in a secured space without someone noticing; and that there was neither gossip nor rumor about any such dramatic and vile incident afterward.

 

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/02/why-the-case-against-cardinal-george-pell-doesnt-stand-up/ 

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cruciatacara

@Jack4 I say justice has been done. If he is successful in his appeal, then you will say justice has been done. Either way, at least one person will think justice has been done. I have no more to say on the subject.

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Jack4
8 hours ago, cruciatacara said:

@Jack4 I say justice has been done. If he is successful in his appeal, then you will say justice has been done. Either way, at least one person will think justice has been done. I have no more to say on the subject.

 

You asked why people defend him. I gave you an answer from one defender. 

What really matters is whether objective justice is done, regardless of my opinions. 

The Newman-Achilli trial shows that anti-Catholic bias of the judge(s) may lead to innocents being convicted, at least in some cases. 

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