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fides' Jack

Pope accused of heresy

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fides' Jack

Phatmass has really died down lately.  I'm surprised I haven't seen discussion on this topic, yet.  Or maybe they have and the threads have been deleted...

In any event, for those who do not know about this, here's a link:

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/prominent-clergy-scholars-accuse-pope-francis-of-heresy-in-open-letter

I bring this up because I think it's important for Catholics to know what's going on, whether or not they agree with what's being done or how it's being done or by whom. 

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Lilllabettt
On 5/2/2019 at 12:57 PM, fides' Jack said:

Phatmass has really died down lately.  I'm surprised I haven't seen discussion on this topic, yet.  Or maybe they have and the threads have been deleted...

In any event, for those who do not know about this, here's a link:

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/prominent-clergy-scholars-accuse-pope-francis-of-heresy-in-open-letter

I bring this up because I think it's important for Catholics to know what's going on, whether or not they agree with what's being done or how it's being done or by whom. 

It doesnt seem like a lot of people signed this one.

Unfortunately with all these "open letters" really serious accusations against the Pope are getting to be kind of old hat.

I dont think they change much. Unless more people are willing to sign their names. Except for Aiden Nichols, it's a list of nobodies.  Or seems that way.

 

 

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KnightofChrist
14 hours ago, Lilllabettt said:

It doesnt seem like a lot of people signed this one.

Unfortunately with all these "open letters" really serious accusations against the Pope are getting to be kind of old hat.

I dont think they change much. Unless more people are willing to sign their names. Except for Aiden Nichols, it's a list of nobodies.  Or seems that way.

 

 

Yes, this one, yet another which Pope Francis will ignore. But yet another Francis will sideways attack the signers, and so called team Francis defenders will personally attack the signers but substance of letter will still be ignored. 

Same old story. No one in high authority will actually DO anything.

Can't wait for the Amazon Synod. 

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KnightofChrist

"There is no hell, there is the disappearance of sinful souls." - Pope Francis, recorded by Eugenio Scalfari.

If Francis said this and believes it he is guilty of denying Church teaching. If he didn't say it, why continue to grant interviews to a reporter who continues to greatly and profoundly misrepresent the Pope's words? This was the fourth or fifth, possibly more, interview with Eugenio Scalfari. Each time Francis is recorded as deny some teaching of the Church. Each time 'the Vatican' backtracks is or denies the comments. But never Francis himself, and still goes back for more interviews. Hard, nearly impossible to give the benefit of the doubt. You don't continue to give interviews to someone that lies and makes up things you never stated. 

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Lilllabettt
On 5/4/2019 at 1:27 PM, KnightofChrist said:

"There is no hell, there is the disappearance of sinful souls." - Pope Francis, recorded by Eugenio Scalfari.

If Francis said this and believes it he is guilty of denying Church teaching. If he didn't say it, why continue to grant interviews to a reporter who continues to greatly and profoundly misrepresent the Pope's words? This was the fourth or fifth, possibly more, interview with Eugenio Scalfari. Each time Francis is recorded as deny some teaching of the Church. Each time 'the Vatican' backtracks is or denies the comments. But never Francis himself, and still goes back for more interviews. Hard, nearly impossible to give the benefit of the doubt. You don't continue to give interviews to someone that lies and makes up things you never stated. 

The Scalfari thing, was really bad.  The best explanation I saw was that the Pope is trying to save (the journalist's)  soul and doesnt think the nonsense he writes after, matters compared to that.  That was the best possible explanation I read. 

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Ice_nine
19 hours ago, Lilllabettt said:

That was the best possible explanation I read. 

yikes.

 

What a mess we're in. Maybe on some level, for some reason, we deserve it. Or maybe we actually deserve much worse and God, in his mercy, decided he would cut us some slack and give us this.

It's very concerning, and tiring. One of the biggest stumbling blocks on returning to the church years ago was the whole submission to authority thing. What does submission to authority look like when the leadership is an absolute dumpster fire?

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Lilllabettt
3 hours ago, Ice_nine said:

yikes.

 

What a mess we're in. Maybe on some level, for some reason, we deserve it. Or maybe we actually deserve much worse and God, in his mercy, decided he would cut us some slack and give us this.

It's very concerning, and tiring. One of the biggest stumbling blocks on returning to the church years ago was the whole submission to authority thing. What does submission to authority look like when the leadership is an absolute dumpster fire?

I think of it this way. Every Pope has sucked at his job in some way. St Peter had to get called out by St Paul, because he was screwing up. What did submission to authority look like when Peter was Pope? JP2 had huge problems with sex abuse. Benedict made mistakes too. In the past we've had popes that were evil em effers that really actively wanted to destroy the church. The Renaissance period was not good.

I dont think that's the current sitch. Rather people are just naive, ignorant and plain sucky at their jobs. It's not malevolent. At least that's my hope. The Scalfari thing was extremely worrisome on that point, but since HH doesnt generally feel the need to explain himself to the peasants, theres no point hoping the air will be cleared. I try not to think about it too much. 

 I do think the loss of secular influence is a judgment from God on the church as a whole.  E.g., when we had influence in society regarding gay sex being bad, we failed to teach the love of gay people.  Therefore God has permitted our influence to fail. Gay people are now more loved, and society wont hear us anymore about the badness of gay sex. Far from being victims, we are to blame. That's just one example.  But yeah... it's a chastisement.  No doubt. 

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Seven77
1 hour ago, Lilllabettt said:

I think of it this way. Every Pope has sucked at his job in some way. St Peter had to get called out by St Paul, because he was screwing up. What did submission to authority look like when Peter was Pope? JP2 had huge problems with sex abuse. Benedict made mistakes too. In the past we've had popes that were evil em effers that really actively wanted to destroy the church. The Renaissance period was not good.

I dont think that's the current sitch. Rather people are just naive, ignorant and plain sucky at their jobs. It's not malevolent. At least that's my hope. The Scalfari thing was extremely worrisome on that point, but since HH doesnt generally feel the need to explain himself to the peasants, theres no point hoping the air will be cleared. I try not to think about it too much. 

 I do think the loss of secular influence is a judgment from God on the church as a whole.  E.g., when we had influence in society regarding gay sex being bad, we failed to teach the love of gay people.  Therefore God has permitted our influence to fail. Gay people are now more loved, and society wont hear us anymore about the badness of gay sex. Far from being victims, we are to blame. That's just one example.  But yeah... it's a chastisement.  No doubt. 

in St. JPII's case, I think that his frail health towards the end of his life made it difficult for him to grasp the full extent of the sexual abuse crisis. But yeah, he too was human and flawed.

 I always tried to look at the Pope Francis's controversial words in the best light possible. But it's getting a little bit difficult. Also, I wonder at some of his appointments and such too. I don't get it sometimes and it is all frustrating. But I think you're right--- we are getting what we deserve. Yet, God allows it out of mercy for us, to purify us.

 

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chrysostom
3 hours ago, Ice_nine said:

yikes.

What a mess we're in. Maybe on some level, for some reason, we deserve it. Or maybe we actually deserve much worse and God, in his mercy, decided he would cut us some slack and give us this.

It's very concerning, and tiring. One of the biggest stumbling blocks on returning to the church years ago was the whole submission to authority thing. What does submission to authority look like when the leadership is an absolute dumpster fire?

I hope that this papacy will help, in the long run, a return to sanity, and to a more judicious estimation (and in fact the traditional understanding) of the Holy Spirit's inspiration regarding every word and action of the Pope.

The Pope cannot make white into black, or wrong into right. And what he says is protected from error under very specific conditions, which the Pope has not invoked since his papacy began, to the best of my knowledge. Absent those conditions, there is wide latitude, in the permissive will of God, for him to say and do all sorts of things.

In the meantime, the truth will continue staying true, as it tends to do. And as the Catechism says, "The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover [the final trial], when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection." Now who knows when that final trial will happen? But any current trial is, in its own way, a participation of the Church in the Passion of Christ, in which God Himself seemed to become, in purely human terms, a complete failure. We know what became of that.

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