Faith Vs Works

[[jas]]

Hi (again) everyone

I've seen this come up a lot so I thought I'd start a new thread and stop cluttering others.

Faith vs Works, what do I need to do to be saved?

Do the following few verses that have been thrown around contradict each other?

Ephesians 2:8-9

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast.

Romans 10:9-10,13

That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved .... for "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

James 2:17

In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

Can I share with you what I believe for a second? (I don't mind if you disagree with me, but please give biblical reasons why, I'm always willing to learn more about God's word and how it can be interpreted )

I think the bible is pretty clear from the first 2 passages that we're saved by grace, the one from Ephesians specifically says that it's not by works. But when we get saved, God puts His Holy Spirit in us, and the Spirit changes our hearts so we will want to do good works.

I heard someone sum it up really well tonight - "Christianity isn't a behaviour modification program, it's about heart transformation".

When God comes into our lives, he brings change. We get a new attitude on things, we become more loving, we want to do God's good works.

I think what James is saying is that if we call ourselves Christians, but we're still living our own way, ignoring God, who are we kidding. The fruit of a relationship with God is good works, but I don't think they're a precondition for salvation.

Matthew 12:23

A tree is recognized by its fruit.

So as Christians, we should be recognised by our good works. But fruit (works) don't grow unless there's a tree (faith) there to start with.

We may not be instantly changed and start living for God 100% as soon as we get saved, either.

Phillipians 1:6

Being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

But God begins a good work in us, and continues to make us grow like Him as we continue in relationship with Him.

Colossians 1:10

And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God

Hope that made sense to everyone, and looking forward to hearing everyone else's thoughts :)

[Cure of Ars]

Jesus was directly asked this question but I never hear Protestants quote his answer. How do you understand this passage?

Now someone approached him and said, "Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?" He answered him, "Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:16)

Ephesians 2:8-9

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast.

Catholics believe that we are saved by Grace alone. The above quote is not faith verses works but Divine grace vs human works. You see once we are born again we have God’s life in us, his spirit. So we cannot boast of our works apart from God but we can when we are God’s co-workers (1 Cor 3:9) because they come from God and his grace. This is why Paul talks about boasting (in fact he does it often) which sould be totally banned from your understanding,

“Each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason to boast with regard to himself alone, and not with regard to someone else” (Gal 6:4) and a little later it says, “Make no mistake: God is not mocked, for a person will reap only what he sows, because the one who sows for his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows for the spirit will reap eternal life from the spirit.” (Gal 6:7-8)

How do you understand the following verses

So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work. (Phil 2:12-13)

Strive for peace with everyone, and for that holiness without which no one will see the Lord. (Heb 12:14)

God bless

Edited September 1, 2003 by Cure of Ars

[ironmonk]

Works bestow grace.

St. Matt 16:24

Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me.

25 For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

26 What profit would there be for one to gain the whole world and forfeit his life? Or what can one give in exchange for his life?

27 For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.

St. Matt 25:31

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,

32 and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,

36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.'

37 Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?

38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?

39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?'

40 And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,

43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.'

44 Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?'

45 He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.'

46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

We must do good works.

St. Luke 12:47

That servant who knew his master's will but did not make preparations nor act in accord with his will shall be beaten severely;

48 and the servant who was ignorant of his master's will but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly. Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more.

If we know the will of the Father, and do not do it, we will be punished.

2 Corin 11:15

So it is not strange that his ministers also masquerade as ministers of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

We will be judged by our deeds, our works. Preachers who say that all you need is faith and it doesn't matter what sins you do to get to heaven, are wrong.

St. Matt 10:22

You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved.

St. Matt 24:13

But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

No one will be saved until the end. We must endure to the end to be saved.

St. Matt 7:1

"Stop judging, that you may not be judged.

2 For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you.

3 Why do you notice the splinter in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye?

We will be judged on how we judge others.

St. John 3:19

And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil.

20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed.

21 But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God.

Works are important.

James 2:20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?

Faith and Works go hand in hand to bestow grace - for it is through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that we are saved, and by no merit of our own. To say we are saved by faith or works is to say that we are responsible for our salvation.

We are not responsible for our salvation. The only part we play is that God offers us the gift of salvation, we can accept it or deny it.

None of us on earth are worthy of salvation... no one has the faith or works that can get them to Heaven. Only through Christ we are saved.

Eph 2:2

in which you once lived following the age of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the disobedient.

3 All of us once lived among them in the desires of our flesh, following the wishes of the flesh and the impulses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of the great love he had for us,

5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, brought us to life with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

6 raised us up with him, and seated us with him in the heavens in Christ Jesus,

7 that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God;

9 it is not from works, so no one may boast.

10 For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.

So many people just look at verses 7, 8, & 9.... and take it out of context. When you look at 2-6 AND 10, it puts it into it's proper context.

In verses 2-6, it condemns the bad works.

In verse 9, the focus is so that 'none may boast', as the Pharisees did in the times before Christ.

In verse 10, it tells us the we need to live in "good works".

God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary

ironmonk

[cmotherofpirl]

Lets actually read the whole section of James:

Jame 2:14+

14

6 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

15

If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,

16

and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?

17

So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18

inDouche someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.

19

You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.

20

Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?

21

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?

22

You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.

23

Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

24

See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

25

And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?

26

For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

[kdewolf2]

I read a book, Predestination, by Father Garrigou-Lagrange, which argued that grace effectively bestows good works. Like St. Augustine said, "Our merits are God's own gifts." There is no opposition between works and grace. Grace, which is freely given independently of any merit, always leads to good works if we cooperate. The works which St. Paul tells us will in no way save us are the works we do by our own natural powers independently of God's grace. But I found an article which really clarifies the Catholic teaching on the issue. Unfortunately, it was written by one of those SSPX schismatics, but if you are careful and, uh, prudent, you may find it very helpful. Here's the link:

Letter to an ex-Catholic, now Protestant minister

[Dave]

Even the Demons Believe

Peter and Paul Ministries

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive

what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."(2 Cor: 5 -10)

Today it seems more than ever that Catholics are beleaguered by Protestants that promulgate the error that good works are worthless and that faith alone in Jesus Christ is sufficient for ones salvation. How many times have unsuspecting Catholics heard,"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."(Jn 3:16) After quoting this verse, presumptuous Protestants will exclaim, see the Catholic Church is wrong, works are not important! What most Catholics don’t know is that the ensuing verses in this chapter that stress the significance of works are conveniently never mentioned. "... and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God."(Jn 3:19 - 21) These verses are obviously ignored because they substantiate the importance of works and also reveals that the faith alone premise is unbiblical.

Once the (Jn 3:16) deception has been exposed, one or both of the atomic bombs of the so called faith alone passages will be dropped. "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the scripture say? 'Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.' Now to one who works, his wages are not reckoned as a gift but as his due. And to one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness."(Rm 4: 2-5) and "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God not because of works, lest any man should boast."(Eph 2:8-9) These Bible texts at first glance seem to nuke the Catholic position, but these bombshells can be easily defused. First, Protestants again deliberately fail to quote passages in these chapters that proclaim the significance of good works such as (Eph 2:10),"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Second, Protestants make the tragic error of confusing the ceremonial works of the Mosaic law that were eradicated by Christ with works of love and charity. If these verses are read in their proper context one will discover that in both cases the subject being addressed is whether circumcision is a requirement for a follower of Christ and not if virtues acts are null and void. As one can imagine, circumcision would be a major stumbling block for an adult male to convert. The sole purpose of theses two verses is to reassure the ungodly, Gentiles that have not been circumcised, that they can belong to Christ and His Church along with their Jewish brothers through faith apart from the Mosaic law. The New Testament makes it abundantly clear that the ceremonial works of the Jews are now impotent and no one said it better than St. Paul who happen to write Romans and Ephesians, "If any other man thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrew parents; as to the law a Pharisee, as to zeal a persecutor of the church, as to righteousness under the law blameless. ... inDouche I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have accepted the loss of all things, and I count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, based on law,"( Phil 3:4-9)

The last weapon in any Protestant’s arsenal is the question, why do you Catholics do good works, didn’t Christ pay the price for our sins on the cross once and for all? This query is designed to confuse and place one on the defensive. Catholics should first respond by saying, I am redeemed by the Blood of Christ, I trust in Him alone for my eternal salvation, and as the (Phil 2:12 ) teaches, I am a working out my salvation in fear and trembling. Next, it must be stressed that Catholics participate in Christ's once and for all sacrifice on Calvary every time they attend Mass because they are one in the same. Jesus made this perfectly clear at the Last Supper, "Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, 'Take, eat; this is my body.' And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."(Matt 26: 26-28) and St. Paul confirmed this by saying, “The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor 10:16) Lastly, Catholics must state that the Church has always proclaimed that Christ paid the price for our sins by His crucifixion, and correctly teaches that through the grace of God, Catholics are given the strength to pick up their cross and follow Jesus and in doing so complete what is lacking in His afflictions to aid the Church militant on earth and those suffering in purgatory. “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church”(Col 1:24)

It is essential that Protestants be made aware that no where in the Bible can one find the phrase, “one is saved by faith alone”. As a matter of fact, the only place in the Bible where the phrase,“faith alone” appears is in the Book of James. “You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."(Jm 2 :19 - 24) Most of today's adherents to Protestantism have no idea that, Martin Luther, heretic and architect of the Reformation, belittled the Book of James calling it,“the epistle of straw”. Luther even went so far as to take this epistle out of the original Lutheran Bible because he knew it torpedoed his concocted theory of salvation. The Roman Catholic Church has always taught that salvation is a gift from God, and that justification and sanctification are accomplished by faith in Jesus Christ along with works of love and charity. The Church has never said that works are of ones’ own merit. Even the most official teaching of the Catholic faith, the Council of Trent, reiterates this teaching, "If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema."(The Sixth Session Canon I )

The evidence for necessity of good works is overwhelming. Jesus tells us in (Matt 25:31-46), that those who feed the hungry, give water to the thirsty, clothe the naked, visit the sick and those in prison will go to heaven, and those who do not perform these acts of love will not like where they end up. In (Matt 19:16-17), Jesus is asked the question, "Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?" He answered, “If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." So the next time a Catholic is confronted by an erroneous statement such as, good works are worthless and that faith alone in Jesus Christ is sufficient for salvation. They need only reply, that every time a Catholic is born again through baptism, humbly asks for absolution for their sins in the sacrament of confession, does penitence, receives the real body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ in the Most Holy Eucharist, prays a rosary, or just says a simple prayer from the heart they are following Christ’s mandate, "You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment."(Matt 22: 37-38); and when a Catholic feeds the hungry, gives alms to the poor, takes care of the sick, visits those in prison, buries the dead, instructs the ignorant, admonishes the sinner, comforts the sorrowful, prays for the living and the dead, or just lends a helping hand to their fellow man they are following the second greatest commandment. "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."(Matt 22:39)

"the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father,and

then he will repay every man for what he has done."(Matt 16: 27)

[Mary's Knight, La]

There are two themes on salvation running in the NT 1. Salvation comes from grace which comes through faith. 2. Faith without works is dead.

So you can't recieve the grace without works, otherwise you could get grace through a dead faith which is senseless.

thus works are a condition not a cause of salvation, the cause of salvation is grace, the condition is works.

Now you get both halves of salvation 1. The divine gift 2. human participation by reception and works

[IXpenguin21]

the long and the short of it is that Catholics believe thus:

through our FAITH, we recieve grace and we do WORKS to show what we believe.

faith alone is empty without it's inspired works, like an empty coloring book. works alone are only supplies for something else, like a box of crayons.

aplied together, you have a work of art.

this is why Catholics understand why you need both... it's more beautiful when the world is colored in love. :)

[skuba steve]

he means that if your heart is transformed and reconcilled with Christ's heart then you will have a hunger inside of you to do good things... to love God and everyone else...

he's saying that if you don't have this hunger within you you haven't really allowed Christ into your heart.

But I believe...believe what you like, that good works is the result of faith.

Some of you say you believe the same thing...but then other put so much emphasis on the good deeds part that the faith part becomes secondary... like in your convos that's what i pick up.

you can do good deeds all your life and still go to hell

but if you accept Jesus into your heart he makes your will his will and you have an uncontrollable passion to save the world... kinda like captain planet.

[cmotherofpirl]

and you can say you accept jesus into your heart and do nothing and still go to hell..

faith without works is no faith at all.

[skuba steve]

no no... if you truly accept Jesus...you can't help but do good stuff.

i dunno why you're even trying to pull an argument out of there.

[[jas]]

If you get saved and it doesn't produce a change in your heart (not that this means you will instantly be perfect, but the Holy Spirit brings change) then I would wonder if the Spirit is really living in you or not. The outworking of our faith is good works. Faith without works is dead.

BUT I think where we differ is that we say we are saved by God's grace alone, just be believing it and accepting His sacrifice. Our good works come as a result of that (it's a result of a change in our hearts, not a cause)

[Cure of Ars]

,Sep 1 2003, 08:58 PM] BUT I think where we differ is that we say we are saved by God's grace alone, just be believing it and accepting His sacrifice.

I don't think that you are reading our posts. Let me quote myself.

Catholics believe that we are saved by Grace alone.

This is the one area that we agree.

Were we disagree is seperating faith from works. To the Catholic they can not be seperated and this is very much biblical. Where in the Bible does it seperate faith from works? The Bible never says that we are saved by "faith alone". In fact, the only place were faith and alone are used together it says the following; “See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” (James 2:24) In fact Paul even calls faith a work in 2 Thessalonians 1:11.

The Bible talks about two different types of faith. One saves and the other does not. By faith do you mean the intellectual faith that the devil has? The faith that can move mountains but is nothing apart from love (1 Cor 13:2)? Are you talking bout the faith that James is talking about which is dead apart from works (2:17). Or are you talking about the faith that works through love (Gal 5:6)? the “obedience of faith” (Roman 1:5) and the faith that is completed by works (James 2:22). We need more than just intellectually believing that Jesus is the Son of God. We also have to trust and try to do what he commands. If Jesus is God then to have faith and trust him we also need to do what he says and if we do not try to do this we really do not have saving faith.

That is why the Bible says, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.” (John 3:36)

God bless

[Cure of Ars]

Romans 10:9-10,13

That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Is saying with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord" a work? Why not?

[Guest shortkristie]

how to be saved?.......

ask god to forgive u of ur sins............make an effort to turn from them and have a realation ship with god.

now thats not hard