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Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus


CatholicCrusader

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CatholicCrusader

Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus ("Outside the Church [there is] no salvation") is a dogma of the Church infallibly defined and preached by the Fathers of the Church and Christ Himself. However, in recent times Modernists and Liberals would like us to think this doctrine were to actually read: Extra Ecclesiam Salus (Outside the Church [there is] salvation).

This, of course, is readily denied by most Catholics who "believe" the doctrine Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus (EENS). Nevertheless, Liberalism and its followers contend that surely those who "through no fault of their own" are "invincibly ignorant" of the Church, can be saved. However, now they have denied what the Church teaches: Extra Ecclesiam NULLA Salus. It would be the same as the Church stating: "The Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ," and a liberal contending: "for some the Eucharist is NOT the Body of Our Lord," making a statement that directly contradicts that of the Church, as the Liberals constantly do.

Unfortunately this erred "theology" has infiltrated most likely every seminary, nearly all Priests, Bishops, and members Church hierarchy. Nevertheless, we ought to stand firm with the Church resounding firmly that membership in the Church is absolutely necessary for salvation. The Church Herself has defined this to be true, and if we leave the bosom of the Church to invent our own theology we are just the same as Luther and the revolutionaries. The Church defines Outside the Church no salvation, thus:

"There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which [u][b]no one at all[/b][/u] is saved." Lateran Council IV

That does not say: outside of which only those who are invincibly ignorant are saved, or outside of which only those who are "baptised by desire" are saved, or outside of which only those who are "baptised by blood" are saved. Rather, it states: outside of which NO ONE AT ALL is saved. No one at all means just that: no one at all. The Church does not make declarations to be interpreted. She makes declarations absolutely and clearly. One would not read the declaration from the Council of Nicea that states (in much less firm terms) that Christ is both 100% God and 100% Man to mean that Christ actually is only 50% God and 50% Man (or some other distorted idea). The Church does not make declarations to be completely "overturned" or "interpreted" in the exact opposite way later when a new and better "truth" comes along that all religions are equal and salvation is found in heresy the same as it is found in Truth. Nay, the Church and Her Popes state otherwise. For merely a few examples: Pope Leo XIII: "it is contrary to reason that error and truth should have equal rights. Pope Pius XI stated that it is "ignomious" to place the True Religion of Christ, the Holy Roman Church, "on the same level with false religions."

Another infallibly defined statement comes in the Papal Bull [i]Unam Sanctam[/i]: "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

It is ABSOLUTELY necessary for salvation to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. Absolutely, unquestionably, defintely, surely necessary to be subject to Christ's Vicar on Earth to be saved. Could the Pope make it any more clear or any more definitive?

The last and most convincing infalible decree of the Church on this Dogma is from the Council of Florence:

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that [u]none[/u] of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; [i]but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels[/i], [u][b]unless before death they are joined with Her[/b][/u]; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, [b]no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church[/b]."

Here the Church truly could not be anymore clear. This is an infallible statement of the Church to which all are required to adhere under pain of mortal sin against Faith and the First Commandment, which, unrepentant of, leads to eternal damnation with the devil and his angels. This decree makes it absolutely certain to all Catholics that unless a man be joined to the Church BEFORE HIS DEATH, he cannot be saved. The last part of the last sentence is all too clear for many Modernists: even if a one pour out his blood ("baptism" of blood) for Christ, he CANNOT BE SAVED, "unless he remain within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church." No one could state it in any clearer terms, yet so many Catholics willfully reject this teaching of the Church, just as they do with contraceptives, just as they do with Baptism, just as they do with even the most basic belief of the Church--the Real Presence of Our Blessed Lord in the Most Holy Eucharist.

How many [i]faithful[/i] Catholics would a word of the Nicean Creed? How many of the same would doubt an ioda of the Apostles' Creed? Then why do they all reject completely the third major Creed of the Church, the Athanasian Creed:

"[b]Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. [u]Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.[/u][/b] And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Etneral and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Uncomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity is Trinity, and the Trinity is Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting Salvation, that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man.

God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the substance of His mother, born into the world. Perfect God and Perfect Man, of a reasonable Soul and human Flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood. Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but One Christ. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into Flesh, but by taking of the Manhood into God. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by Unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one Man, so God and Man is one Christ. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into Hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into Heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire. [u][b]This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved[/b][/u]."

The Church could be no more clear: membership in the Church of Christ is absolutely necessary. There is no "invisible unity." Nay, as St. Paul proclaimed: "One Lord, one faith, one baptism." (Eph. IV.5) So that no one has any doubt of conscience, here again the Popes of history and the Saints of the Church proclaim the same Truth:

(See next post)

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Nuh uh, all Salvation is through the Church, no matter what. What you're hearing as Salvation outside the Church happens through the Church. It's the Church that allows a person to be saved, whether or not they realize it. When people are Baptized, the Baptism is into the Church. This is why it is accepted. Also, there is a Baptism of desire where a person can unknowing want to be Baptized and seek it. In both of these cases, the Church is the source of salvation for all.

This isn't contrary to Church teaching in any way. Rather it is an expansion of what we believe.

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CatholicCrusader

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Jul 9 2004, 04:36 PM'] Nuh uh, all Salvation is through the Church, no matter what. What you're hearing as Salvation outside the Church happens through the Church. It's the Church that allows a person to be saved, whether or not they realize it. When people are Baptized, the Baptism is into the Church. This is why it is accepted. Also, there is a Baptism of desire where a person can unknowing want to be Baptized and seek it. In both of these cases, the Church is the source of salvation for all.

This isn't contrary to Church teaching in any way. Rather it is an expansion of what we believe. [/quote]
Where has the Church infallibly stated such an idea? She has not. She has stated infallibly anly that non-Catholics cannot be saved. If She had stated INFALLIBLY (in an Ecumenical Council or in a Papal Bull) otherwise, then that would be another thing. By the way, Vatican II was not "infallible" since it was merely pastoral, as stated by both Paul VI and John XXIII. The Council itself stated that it was creating no new doctrine.

God bless.

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CatholicCrusader

(continued from original)

St. Ignatius of Antioch (c. 110): "Those, indeed, who belong to God and to Jesus Christ -- they are with the bishop. And those who repent and come to the unity of the Church -- they too shall be of God, and will be living according to Jesus Christ. Do not err, my brethren: if anyone follow a schismatic, he will not inherit the Kingdom of God. If any man walk about with strange doctrine, he cannot lie down with the passion." (Letter to the Philadelphians 3:2-3)

St. Irenaeus (c. 180- 199): "The preaching of the Church truly continues without change and is everywhere the same, and has the testimony of the Prophets and the Apostles and all their disciples...That in which we have faith is a firm system directed to the salvation of men; and, since it has been received by the Church, we guard it.... In the Church, God has placed apostles, prophets and doctors, and all the other means through which the Spirit works; in all of which none have any part who do not conform to the Church. On the contrary, they defraud themselves of life by their wicked opinion and most wretched behavior. For where the Church is, there is the Spirit of God; and where the Spirit of God, there the Church and every grace. The Spirit, however, is Truth." (Against Heresies 3:24:1)

Origen (c. 249- 251): "If someone of that people wishes to be saved, let him come into this house, so that he may be able to obtain his salvation....Let no one, then, be persuaded otherwise, nor let anyone deceive himself: outside this house, that is, outside the Church, no one is saved. For if anyone go outside, he shall be guilty of his own death." (Homilies on Josue 3:5)

St. Cyprian of Carthage (c. 251): "The Bride of Christ cannot be defiled. She is inviolate and chaste. She knows but one home, and with a chaste modesty she guards the one bedchamber. It is she that keeps us for God, she that seals for the kingdom the sons whom she bore. Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress is separated from the promises of the Church; nor will he that forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is an alien, a worlding, and an enemy. He cannot have God for his Father who does not have the Church for his Mother. If anyone outside the ark of Noah was able to escape, then perhaps someone outside the pale of the Church may escape... Does anyone believe that in the Church this unity which proceeds from the divine stability and which is welded together after the heavenly patterns, can be divided, and can be separated by the parting asunder of opposing wills? Whoever holds not fast to this unity holds not to the law of God; neither does he keep faith with the Father and the Son, nor does he have life and salvation." (The Unity of the Catholic Church 6)

St. Cyprian of Carthage (c. 251): "If the Baptism of public witness and of blood cannot profit a heretic unto salvation, because there is no salvation outside the Church, how much the more worthless is it for him, in secret places and in the caves of robbers, dipped in the contagion of adulterous water, not merely not to have put off his former sins, but even to have added new and greater ones!" (Letters 73:21, c. 255 AD)

Lactanius (c. 304-310): "It is, therefore, the Catholic Church alone which retains true worship. This is the fountain of truth; this, the domicile of faith; this, the temple of God. Whoever does not enter there or whoever does not go out from here, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation....Because, however, all the various groups of heretics are confident that they are the Christians, and think that theirs is the Catholic Church, let it be known: that is the true Church, in which there is confession and penance, and which takes a salubrious care of the sins and wounds to which the weak flesh is subject." (The Divine Institutions 4:30:11,13)

St. Cyril of Jerusalem (c. 350): "The Church is called Catholic, then, because it extends over the whole world, from end to end of the earth; and because it teaches universally and infallibly each and every doctrine which must come to the knowledge of men, concerning things visible and invisible, heavenly and earthly; and because it brings every race of men into subjection to godliness, governors and governed, learned and unlearned; and because it universally treats and heals every class of sins, those committed with the soul and those with the body; and it possesses within itself every conceivable form of virtue, in deeds and in words and in the spiritual gifts of every description....And if ever you are visiting in cities, do not inquire simply where the House of the Lord is -- for the others, sects of the impious, attempt to call their dens the Houses of the Lord -- nor ask merely where the Church is, but where is the Catholic Church. For this is the name peculiar to this holy Church, the Mother of us all, which is the Spouse of our Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God." (Catechetical Lectures 18:23,26)

St. Jerome (c. 374-379): "I follow no leader but Christ and join in communion with none but Your Blessedness, that is, with the chair of Peter. I know that this is the Rock on which the Church has been built. Whoever eats the Lamb outside this house is profane. Anyone who is not in the ark of Noah [the Church] will perish when the flood prevails..." (Letters 15:2, this is a letter to Pope St. Damasus)

St. Augustine (d. 430): "Sara said: 'Cast out the bondwoman and her son; for the son of a bondwoman shall not be heir with my son Isaac' [Genesis 21:10]. And the Church says: 'Cast out heresies and their children; for heretics shall not be heirs with Catholics.' But why shall they not be heirs? Are they not born of Abraham's seed? And have they not the Church's Baptism? They do have Baptism; and it would make the seed of Abraham an heir, if pride did not exclude them from inheritance. By the same word, by the same Sacrament you were born, but you will not come to the same inheritance of eternal life, unless you return to the Catholic Church." (Sermons 3, c. 391 - 430)

St. Augustine: "No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church." (Sermo ad Caesariensis Ecclesia plebem [Discourse to Church at Caesarea], c. 418)

St. Fulgence of Ruspe (d. 527): "Anyone who is outside this Church, which received the keys of the kingdom of heaven, is walking a path not to heaven but to hell. He is not approaching the home of eternal life; rather, he is hastening to the torment of eternal death. And this is the case not only if he remains a pagan without Baptism, but even if, after having been baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, he continue as a heretic....For he is saved by the Sacrament of Baptism, whom the unity of love holds within the Catholic Church up to his passing from this present life." (The Forgiveness of Sins 1:19:2, c. 512 - 523)

St. Fulgence of Ruspe: "Anyone who received the Sacrament of Baptism, whether in the Catholic Church or in a heretical or schismatic one, receives the whole Sacrament; but salvation, which is the strength of the Sacrament, he will not have, if he has had that Sacrament outside the Catholic Church... He must, therefore, return to the Church, not so that he might receive again the Sacrament of Baptism, which no one dare repeat in any baptized person, but so that he may receive eternal life in Catholic society, for the obtaining of which no one is suited who, even with the Sacrament of Baptism, remains estranged from the Catholic Church... Hold most firmly and never doubt in the least that no person baptized outside the Catholic Church can become a participant of eternal life if, before the end of this life, he has not returned and been incorporated in the Catholic Church." (The Rule of Faith 43, 80 c. 523 - 526 AD)

Pope Pelagius II (578 - 590): "Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. ...Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. ...Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. ...[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church.”

Pope St. Gregory the Great (590 - 604): "Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved."

Pope Innocent III (1198 - 1216): "With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved."

Pope Boniface VIII (1294-1303): "We are compelled to believe and to hold...that there is One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside of which there is neither salvation nor remission of sins."

Pope St. Pius V (1566-1572): "He who reigns on high, to whom is given all power in heaven and on earth, has entrusted His Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside of which there is no salvation, to one person on earth alone, namely, to Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, and to Peter's successor, the Roman Pontiff, to be governed by him with the fullness of power."

Pope Leo XII (1823 - 1829): "We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. ...For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for Mother.'" (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)

(continue to next post, please)

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(continued...)

Pope Gregory XVI (1831 - 1846): "It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved." (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter)

Pope Gregory XVI: "Preach the true Catholic faith; he who does not keep it whole and without error will undoubtedly be lost....Encourage union with the Catholic Church, for he who is separated from her will not have life."

Pope Pius IX (1846 - 1878): "It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood."

Pope Pius IX: "The Church is One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic, and Roman: unique, the Chair founded on Peter...Outside her fold is to be found neither the true faith nor eternal salvation, for it is impossible to have God for a Father if one has not the Church for a Mother."

Pope Leo XIII (1878 - 1903): "This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God's commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church." (Encyclical, Annum Ingressi Sumus)

Pope Leo XIII: "He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God." (Encyclical, Sapientiae Christianae)

Pope Leo XIII: "All who wish to reach salvation outside the Church are mistaken as to the way and are engaged in a futile effort....Christianity is, in fact, incarnate in the Catholic Church; it is identified with that perfect and spiritual society which is the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ and has for its visible head the Roman Pontiff.... By God's commandment, salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church."
Pope St. Pius X (1903 - 1914): "It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation." (Encyclical, Iucunda Sane)

Pope Benedict XV (1914 - 1922): "Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved." (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)

Pope Benedict XV: "In Holy Mother Church lies all hope of eternal salvation.... If anyone is outside of the ark of Noah, he will perish in the overwhelming flood."

Pope Pius XI (1922 - 1939): "The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. ...Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors." (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos)

Pope Pius XII (1939 - 1958): "By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Ghost, is the source of truth." (Allocution to the Gregorian, October 17, 1953)

Pope John XXIII (1958-1963): "It is impossible to be joined to God except through Jesus Christ; it is impossible to be united to Christ except in and through the Church which is His Mystical Body."

Saint Irenaeus (died A.D. 202): "[The Church] is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers. On this account we are bound to avoid them... We hear it declared of the unbelieving and the blinded of this world that they shall not inherit the world of life which is to come... Resist them in defense of the only true and life giving faith, which the Church has received from the Apostles and imparted to her sons." (Against Heresies, Book III)

Origen (died A.D. 254): "Let no man deceive himself. Outside this house, that is, outside the Church no one is saved." (In Iesu Nave homiliae)
Saint Cyprian (died A.D. 258): "He who has turned his back on the Church of Christ shall not come to the rewards of Christ; he is an alien, a worldling, an enemy. You cannot have God for your Father if you have not the Church for your mother. Our Lord warns us when He says: `he that is not with Me is against Me, and he that gathereth not with Me scattereth.' Whosoever breaks the peace and harmony of Christ acts against Christ; whoever gathers elsewhere than in the Church scatters the Church of Christ." (Unity of the Catholic Church)

"He who does not hold this unity, does not hold the law of God, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation." (Patrologiae Cursus Completus: Latina, Father Migne)

"Nay, though they should suffer death for the confession of the Name, the guilt of such men is not removed even by their blood...No martyr can he be who is not in the Church." (Ancient Christian Writers)

Bishop Firmilean (died A.D. 269): "What is the greatness of his error, and what the depth of his blindness, who says that remission of sins can be granted in the synagogues of heretics, and does not abide on the foundation of the one Church." (Anti-Nicene Fathers)
Lactantius (died A.D. 310): "It is the Catholic Church alone which retains true worship. This is the fountain of truth, this is the abode of the Faith, this is the temple of God; into which if anyone shall not enter, or from which if anyone shall go out, he is a stranger to the hope of life and eternal salvation." (The Divine Institutes)

Saint Cyril of Jerusalem (died A.D. 386): "Abhor all heretics...heed not their fair speaking or their mock humility; for they are serpents, a `brood of vipers.' Remember that, when Judas said `Hail Rabbi,' the salutation was an act of betrayal. Do not be deceived by the kiss but beware of the venom. Abhor such men, therefore, and shun the blasphemers of the Holy Spirit, for whom there is no pardon. For what fellowship have you with men without hope. Let us confidently say to God regarding all heretics, `Did I not hate, O Lord, those who hated Thee, and did I not pine away because of Your enemies?' For there is an enmity that is laudable, as it is written, `I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed.' Friendship with the serpent produces enmity with God, and death. Let us shun those from whom God turns away." (The Fathers of the Church)

Saint Ambrose (died A.D. 397): "Where Peter is therefore, there is the Church. Where the Church is there is not death but life eternal. ...Although many call themselves Christians, they usurp the name and do not have the reward." (The Fathers of the Church)

Bishop Niceta of Remesiana (died A.D. 415): "He is the Way along which we journey to our salvation; the Truth, because He rejects what is false; the Life, because He destroys death. ...All who from the beginning of the world were, or are, or will be justified - whether Patriarchs, like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, or Prophets, whether Apostles or martyrs, or any others - make up one Church, because they are made holy by one faith and way of life, stamped with one Spirit, made into one Body whose Head, as we are told, is Christ. I go further. The angels and virtues and powers in heaven are co-members in this one Church, for, as the Apostle teaches us, in Christ `all things whether on the earth or in the heavens have been reconciled.' You must believe, therefore, that in this one Church you are gathered into the Communion of Saints. You must know that this is the one Catholic Church established throughout the world, and with it you must remain in unshaken communion. There are, indeed, other so called `churches' with which you can have no communion. ...These `churches' cease to be holy, because they were deceived by the doctrines of the devil to believe and behave differently from what Christ commanded and from the tradition of the Apostles." (The Fathers of the Church)

Saint Jerome (died A.D. 420): "As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is, with the Chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the Church is built. ...This is the ark of Noah, and he who is not found in it shall perish when the flood prevails. ...And as for heretics, I have never spared them; on the contrary, I have seen to it in every possible way that the Church's enemies are also my enemies." (Manual of Patrology and History of Theology)

Saint Augustine (died A.D. 430): "No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church." (Sermo ad Caesariensis Ecclesia plebem)

Saint Fulgentius (died A.D. 533): "Most firmly hold and never doubt that not only pagans, but also all Jews, all heretics, and all schismatics who finish this life outside of the Catholic Church, will go into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Enchiridion Patristicum)

St. Bede the Venerable (died A.D. 735): "Just as all within the ark were saved and all outside of it were carried away when the flood came, so when all who are pre-ordained to eternal life have entered the Church, the end of the world will come and all will perish who are found outside." (Hexaemeron)

Saint Thomas Aquinas (died A.D. 1274): "There is no entering into salvation outside the Church, just as in the time of the deluge there was none outside the ark, which denotes the Church." (Summa Theologiae)

Saint Peter Canisius (died A.D. 1597): "Outside of this communion - as outside of the ark of Noah - there is absolutely no salvation for mortals: not for Jews or pagans who never received the faith of the Church, nor for heretics who, having received it, corrupted it; neither for the excommunicated or those who for any other serious cause deserve to be put away and separated from the body of the Church like pernicious members...for the rule of Cyprian and Augustine is certain: he will not have God for his Father who would not have the Church for his mother." (Catechismi Latini et Germanici)

Saint Robert Bellarmine (died A.D. 1621): "Outside the Church there is no salvation...therefore in the symbol [Apostles Creed] we join together the Church with the remission of sins: `I believe in the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins'...For this reason the Church is compared with the ark of Noah, because just as during the deluge, everyone perished who was not in the ark, so now those perish who are not in the Church." (De Sacramento Baptismi)

As you can see, none of these talk of an "invisible" membership in the Church, for it does not exist. Rather, they all stand by the Church, Who has declared infallibly that absolutely no one outside the Church can be saved. God bless.

St. Matthew X.27, "That which I tell you in the dark, speak ye in the light: and that which you hear in the ear, preach ye upon the housetops."

Edited by CatholicCrusader
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Kindly read this stuff, please:

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[url="http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/desire.html"]http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/desire.html[/url]

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Let's not forget this one too: [url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3517/nosalv.htm"]http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3517/nosalv.htm[/url]

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CatholicCrusader

I read mostly all of [url="http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/eens.html"]http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/eens.html[/url], but I don't have time to read through long articles. I would appreciate it if you could sum them up or quote relevant points because I simply don't have time to read through things such as those that do not take their authority from a pronouncement [i]ex Cathedra[/i] but rather from their own reason apart from the Faith required by Christ, as He has revealed such to His Popes in the pronouncements I quoted. If he writes, "We notice that this is after St. Thomas’ writings and would have been the perfect Council to correct him" while speaking of Unam Sanctam...a Papal Bull is not a Council. I don't see how I can take what he says seriously when he writes things like that or when his logic is that St. Thomas Aquinas, who wrote very much, a lot of which was speculative (and about some of which he was completely wrong, such as the Immaculate Conception), was not rebuked for doing so on a speculative basis while still accepting the Dogma of the Church, which had not at that time been explained or decreed fully, which came at the Council of Florence.

God bless.

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CatholicCrusader

"When I cited Vatican II and the catechism he said the catechism was wrong and that Vatican II was only a pastoral council.


The Catechism is a document of the Ordinary Magisterium duly promulgated by the Holy See with the Pope's supervision and blessing. If you read the Encyclical Humani Generis by Pope Pius XII of happy memeory and chapter 25 of Lumen Gentium (ie the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church from VCII) you will see that such a document promulgated in this way is indeed infallible."

That is from [url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3517/nosalv.htm"]http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3517/nosalv.htm[/url]. I really cannot sit here and read through that kind of mumbo-jumbo. The catechism is infallible? What next, anything the Pope says is infallible?? If it's infallible, then why was it corrected. If it is infallible why was it not promulgated at an Ecumenical Council or in a Papal Bull, two ways we know for sure that something is infallible?

God bless.

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IcePrincessKRS

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/EXTRECCL.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/EXTRECCL.HTM[/url] (The article is this link is quite long, if you don't want to read the whole article scroll down to the section titled "Epithets On Boston Common", look for the sub-section "DUELING PONTIFFS?" and read the several paragraphs following that heading.)

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/OUTSID.TXT"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/OUTSID.TXT[/url] (I find this article particularly good)

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFFEENY.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFFEENY.HTM[/url]

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/EXTRAECC.TXT"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/EXTRAECC.TXT[/url]

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/FEENEY.TXT"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/FEENEY.TXT[/url]

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/MEMBCHR.TXT"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/MEMBCHR.TXT[/url]


You can also go to this link: [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=7728"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=7728[/url]

PhatCatholic has done a great job of compiling links to articles about Salvation outside the Church (among many other topics!) If you scroll down about halfway you will find the section of links to articles pertaining to Salvation outside the Catholic Church.

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IcePrincessKRS

[quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Jul 9 2004, 05:17 PM'] I read mostly all of [url="http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/eens.html"]http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/eens.html[/url], but I don't have time to read through long articles. [/quote]
lol Thats just a tiny bit hypocritical considering the length of your first couple posts.... ;) (I'm just teasing! Don't get mad!)

Anyhow, I'm closing this thread. I shut down this same discussion not 10 days ago because it was causing scandal, etc. Links and articles for both sides have been provided, I still think its best to leave this topic rest (again, if you don't like my decision discuss it with dUSt and if he sees fit he can re-open it).

God Bless.

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