Did Judas Go To Hell?

[Guest JeffCR07]

very true, but you posted the topic, so we are responding as best we can.

[ironmonk]

Interesting stuff on Judas.....


Origen against Celcus

Book 2
Chapter XI.

In the next place, that He was betrayed by those whom He called His disciples, is a circumstance which the Jew of Celsus learned from the Gospels; calling the one Judas, however, "many disciples," that he might seem to add force to the accusation. Nor did he trouble himself to take note of all that is related concerning Judas; how this Judas, having come to entertain opposite and conflicting opinions regarding his Master neither opposed Him with his whole soul, nor yet with his whole soul preserved the respect due by a pupil to his teacher. For be that betrayed Him gave to the multitude that came to apprehend Jesus, a sign, saying, "Whomsoever I shall kiss, it is he; seize ye him,"—retaining still some element of respect for his Master: for unless he had done so, he would have betrayed Him, even publicly, without any pretence of affection. This circumstance, therefore, will satisfy all with regard to the purpose of Judas, that along with his covetous disposition, and his wicked design to betray his Master, he had still a feeling of a mixed character in his mind, produced in him by the words of Jesus, which had the appearance (so to speak) of some remnant of good. For it is related that, "when Judas, who betrayed Him, knew that He was condemned, he repented, and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the high priest and elders, saying, I have sinned, in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. But they said, What is that to us? see thou to that; " —and that, having thrown the money down in the temple, he departed, and went and hanged himself. But if this covetous Judas, who also stole the money placed in the bag for the relief of the poor, repented, and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, it is clear that the instructions of Jesus had been able to produce some feeling of repentance in his mind, and were not altogether despised and loathed by this traitor. Nay, the declaration, "I have sinned, in that I have betrayed the innocent blood," was a public acknowledgment of his crime. Observe, also, how exceedingly passionate was the sorrow for his sins that proceeded from that repentance, and which would not suffer him any longer to live; and how, after he had cast the money down in the temple, he withdrew, and went away and hanged himself: for he passed sentence upon himself, showing what a power the teaching of Jesus had over this sinner Judas, this thief and traitor, who could not always treat with contempt what he had learned from Jesus. Will Celsus and his friends now say that those proofs which show that the apostasy of Judas was not a complete apostasy, even after his attempts against his Master, are inventions, and that this alone is true, viz., that one of His disciples betrayed Him; and will they add to the Scriptural account that he betrayed Him also with his whole heart? To act in this spirit of hostility with the same writings, both as to what we are to believe and what we are not to believe, is absurd. And if we must make a statement regarding Judas which may overwhelm our opponents with shame, we would say that, in the book of Psalms, the whole of the Psalms 108 contains a prophecy about Judas, the beginning of which is this: "O God, hold not Thy peace before my praise; for the mouth of the sinner, and the mouth of the crafty man, are opened against me." And it is predicted in this psalm, both that Judas separated himself from the number of the apostles on account of his sins, and that another was selected in his place; and this is shown by the words: "And his bishopric let another take." But suppose now that He had been betrayed by some one of His disciples, who was possessed by a worse spirit than Judas, and who had completely poured out, as it were, all the words which he had heard from Jesus, what would this contribute to an accusation against Jesus or the Christian religion? And how will this demonstrate its doctrine to be false? We have replied in the preceding chapter to the statements which follow this, showing that Jesus was not taken prisoner when attempting to flee, but that He gave Himself up voluntarily for the sake of us all. Whence it follows, that even if He were bound, He was bound agreeably to His own will; thus teaching us the lesson that we should undertake similar things for the sake of religion in no spirit of unwillingness.





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You mention that Judas lost his faith in Jesus on the day He taught the doctrine of the Eucharist. I had never heard that before. Could you please elaborate? Thank you so much. Guillermo

On 14 Feb 1996, Father Mateo wrote: But Catholics can change. Some will lose their faith for lack of prayer, from listening to the world and not to Christ. The doctrine of the Real Presence seems to be a favorite target of rejection and unbelief. When Our Lord first announced it (John 6:22-59), many of his disciples, maybe most of them, refused to believe it and turned their back on him (6:60-71). On that day, Judas too lost his faith. But Jesus did not budge from his doctrine (verse 67).

Dear Guillermo,

In his Bread of Life discourse in John 6:26-59, Our Lord insisted eight times (verses 48-50, 51, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58) that his disciples would eat his flesh and drink his blood, and so they would have eternal life.

Understanding him literally, many of his disciples rejected his teaching (verse 60) and turned their backs on him, following him no longer (verse 66).

Jesus had read their thoughts, their unbelief (verse 64). He knew which ones would reject him and his Real-Presence promise. Among them, he knew Judas, "the one who would betray him" (ibid.) So he branded Judas at that moment a devil and a traitor.

Our Lord did not back down from his teaching. He challenged the apostles. "Will you also go away?" (verse 67). They stayed --- but in his heart at that moment, Judas denied him and refused to believe the promise of eternal life through eating and drinking Christ's flesh and blood in the Holy Eucharist.

Sincerely in Christ, Father Mateo










God Bless,
ironmonk

[White Knight]

Ya I know I posted the topic..... I just wanted to get everyones opinion on it.

[Guest JeffCR07]

cool stuff Ironmonk

[phatcatholic]

just to add a new dimension to this Judas debate. could this be proof that he repented of his betrayal of Jesus, thus leaving us only to wonder if he repented of his suicide while he was hanging from the tree?

[b]Mat 27:1-5[/b]
[b]1 [/b]When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:
[b]2 [/b]And when they had bound him, they led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor.
[b]3 [/b]Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
[b]4 [/b]Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
[b]5 [/b]And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

i see this as an often overlooked event in the life of Judas. your thoughts?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Aug 23 2004, 12:20 AM'] just to add a new dimension to this Judas debate. could this be proof that he repented of his betrayal of Jesus, thus leaving us only to wonder if he repented of his suicide while he was hanging from the tree?

[b]Mat 27:1-5[/b]
[b]1 [/b]When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:
[b]2 [/b]And when they had bound him, they led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor.
[b]3 [/b]Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
[b]4 [/b]Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
[b]5 [/b]And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

i see this as an often overlooked event in the life of Judas. your thoughts? [/quote]
Well, he repented of the betrayal, but then despaired and committed suicide.

Of course, he could have gone insane.

[StColette]

I agree with you Micah, Judas repented for his betrayal, but in his despair he killed himself. Part of asking for forgiveness is accepting that forgiveness from God for your sin. The acceptance of forgiveness tends to be the hardest thing. but that's just my opinion

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='StColette' date='Aug 23 2004, 12:26 AM'] I agree with you Micah, Judas repented for his betrayal, but in his despair he killed himself. Part of asking for forgiveness is accepting that forgiveness from God for your sin. The acceptance of forgiveness tends to be the hardest thing. but that's just my opinion [/quote]
Yes, but I still maintain that we cannot judge at all. We shouldn't even say there is a likelihood, but should hold out hope.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Aug 22 2004, 11:23 PM'] Well, he repented of the betrayal, but then despaired and committed suicide.

Of course, he could have gone insane. [/quote]
i know, i agree, just pointing out his first repentence

[StColette]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Aug 22 2004, 11:27 PM'] Yes, but I still maintain that we cannot judge at all. We shouldn't even say there is a likelihood, but should hold out hope. [/quote]
yep yep I agree Raphael, we can only hope

[Mateo el Feo]

Just a couple Gospel quotes...

First, regarding Judas.
[quote]Matthew 26:24 (also Mark 14:21)- "The Son of man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born." [/quote]
I think that this verse suggests that Judas' eternal home is a little hotter than he would like. Otherwise, why would it better for Judas to not have been born if he is in paradise enjoying the Beatific Vision for all eternity?

Regarding Good Friday's statement:

[quote]but I assert that we as Catholics can have hope that hell is empty.[/quote]

Interestingly, today's Gospel reading was the following (Lk 13:22-30):

[quote]Jesus passed through towns and villages, teaching as he went and making his way to Jerusalem.

Someone asked him, "Lord, will only a few people be saved?"

He answered them, "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I tell you, will attempt to enter but will not be strong enough.

After the master of the house has arisen and locked the door, then will you stand outside knocking and saying, 'Lord, open the door for us.'

He will say to you in reply, 'I do not know where you are from.'

And you will say, 'We ate and drank in your company and you taught in our streets.'

Then he will say to you, 'I do not know where you are from.  Depart from me, all you evildoers!'

And there will be wailing and grinding of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves cast out.  And people will come from the east and the west and from the north and the south and will recline at table in the kingdom of God.  For behold, some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last."[/quote]

According to Our Lord, "many...will attempt to enter but will not be strong enough." And when they knock, he will say, "Depart from me, all you evildoers!" These aren't theoretical souls. These are the "many" who Our Lord knows will not be strong enough (in faith?) to enter. With an empty hell, who would wail and grind their teeth?

That puts a fair amount of fear of God in me! Maybe the fact that I need a dental guard to keep me from grinding my teeth is God's little hint for me to keep faithful to Him! I don't want to grind my teeth in eternity!

Other references:

1) In the New Testament, Our Lord mentions a particular man in hell. See Luke 16:22-24 [url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/luke/luke16.htm#v19"](Link)[/url].

2) I think there are also some Church documents on the subject of hope of universal salvation. In particular, look at number 17 of Pius IX's Syllabus of errors ([url="http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9syll.htm"]link[/url]):
[quote]17. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ. -- Encyclical "Quanto conficiamur," Aug. 10, 1863, etc.[/quote]

Just some thoughts...

[ironmonk]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Aug 23 2004, 01:20 AM'] just to add a new dimension to this Judas debate. could this be proof that he repented of his betrayal of Jesus, thus leaving us only to wonder if he repented of his suicide while he was hanging from the tree?

[b]Mat 27:1-5[/b]
[b]1 [/b]When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:
[b]2 [/b]And when they had bound him, they led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor.
[b]3 [/b]Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
[b]4 [/b]Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
[b]5 [/b]And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

i see this as an often overlooked event in the life of Judas. your thoughts? [/quote]
Somthing to note...

It might not have been a tree that he hung himself from.

Back then, it was common that when someone was hanged - it was by being impaled on a spear. This would clarify both Gospels that speak of Judas' suicide...

Though, the heat could have made the body fill with gases and burst open, if he was hanging by a rope... this too would clarify the Gospels...

It's stuff like the story of Judas' death that affirm for atheist that there is no God.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[MichaelFilo]

Repent he may of done, but he denied God's forgiveness by suicide. Suicide is intrinsincly evil, so it would mean hell. His repenting wasn't complete, since one must trust that God will forgive them, and that He is able to. Since he hung himself for a repented sin, then he didn't trust in his forgiveness. All roads point to hell, however, he MAY of repented. I still hope he did, however unlikely it is.

God bless,

Mikey

[Mary's Knight, La]

michael,

you are right his eternal fate is a one chance deal, however it is one chance from the other side of eternity (God's side), and God is certainly capable of answering our prayers in anticipation (as in 2000 years before we actually say the prayer). I would go so far as to say praying for his salvation isn't only not-useless but a good spiritual exercise as it forces us to pray for someone so remote we don't really know him only what he did.

to say prayer is useless is to deny God's power

[MichaelFilo]

Please tell me when I said prayer is useless. I actually believe that prayer is necessary for salvation, as it attains for us graces that help us keep spritiual grace. What I was saying was that hope is useless after the fact. I pointed out that prayer is useful if you don't know what happened, since God knows the prayer would be said before it happens.


Rapheal gladly pointed out to me I was wrong.

I hold prayer to have a big role in our salvation. Please don't think I think otherwise.

God bless,

Mikey