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Thomas A Kempis


dUSt

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Wow, it must have been difficult to tell if someone was dead. Hmmm... Body warm = alive. Body cold = dead. That's tough.

Then again, just like today when we say that unborn children aren't alive, I suppose that back in the day if someone was in a comma, they didn't consider them alive... maybe.

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Doesn't finding him with a handful of hair just mean he was saying to himself, "darn and now I'm going bald, what else could go wrong!"

I love his book, and it would be very cool to be involved in getting him recognized by the church as a saint. What do we do next?

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I also read that he had a "look of despair" on his face...but I am not sure what that means. I also heard that the coffin was scratched up on the inside...the whole thing freaks me out.

Any way, dUSt, if you want he canonized start asking for his intercession for matters concerning your life, espcially Phatmass, and document them...

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cmotherofpirl

[quote name='dUSt' date='Sep 2 2004, 07:17 PM'] Woa. I found this on a website. Very disturbing...

[i]"I had also always wondered why nobody had canonised Thomas à Kempis, author of the Imitation of Christ, which has inspired so many and a copy of which Pope John Paul I was allegedly holding when he was found dead. Well, here was the gruesome answer. Apparently when his coffin was opened for formal identification of the remains at the beginning of the process, he was found to be holding clumps of his own hair tightly in his hands. It seems he must have been buried while in a coma, and not dead, and would have woken up to find himself buried alive. The clumps of hair suggested he might have succumbed to despair, which of course would bar him from sainthood. It seems the case was just dropped at that point and never revived."[/i] [/quote]
I think it would be a bit presumputous on the authors part to assume a panic attack means despair and lack of trust in God.

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1337 k4th0l1x0r

[quote name='the_rev' date='Sep 3 2004, 07:09 AM']
The term Saved by the bell comes from people being buried alive. They use to attack a string with bell their finger so if they awoke they could ring it.

Interesting ey' [/quote]
I thought saved by the bell came from boxing when a 10-count at the end of a round would be stopped by the bell ringing.

'Graveyard shift', however, does come from the bells attached. People would have to wait at the graveyard around the clock just in case someone rang their bell.

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1337 k4th0l1x0r

I think if I woke up from a coma, my first reaction would be one of panic. After that, I would try to calm myself down and try to die in peace. Who knows what really happened. Maybe he panicked and had a heart attack instantly. It's not exactly a situation where one would be fully aware and have his wits.

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Thy Geekdom Come

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Sep 2 2004, 09:35 PM'] So, what you're saying is if I find myself buried alive, I cannot get claustraphobic, panic, pull out my hair and wish that God would have mercy on me and let me die? I must patiently take a deep breath, twiddle my thumbs and pray. If not, I'm commiting a mortal sin and doomed to hell. [/quote]
I don't think it's quite that way. But giving into fear, letting fear rule instead of having the hope that you would be rescued while still realizing that God will take care of you, would be bad. It's the abandonment of hope and the thinking about the tragedy of death without the hope of heaven. Essentially, it's looking that the glass half empty in a very grave manner.

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Thy Geekdom Come

[quote name='the_rev' date='Sep 3 2004, 08:09 AM']
The term Saved by the bell comes from people being buried alive. They use to attack a string with bell their finger so if they awoke they could ring it.

Interesting ey' [/quote]
Actually, there is a standing patent in the US for a grave ventilation machine that works through the tombstone. It has a signaling system to inform others that you are still alive, if you were in a coma, and a crank that pumps fresh air into the casket.

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  • 7 months later...

[quote name='Raphael' date='Sep 3 2004, 11:28 AM'] I don't think it's quite that way. But giving into fear, letting fear rule instead of having the hope that you would be rescued while still realizing that God will take care of you, would be bad. It's the abandonment of hope and the thinking about the tragedy of death without the hope of heaven. Essentially, it's looking that the glass half empty in a very grave manner. [/quote]
this is pretty frightening, I hope I am prepared for death enough as to be able to hold on to hope untill the end, so we are to face death with little or no fear?

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Ash Wednesday

If any of this is true -- the poor man was also 91 years old, so he could have been senile, sick, and not all that coherant, for all we know. God only knows what the poor man would have been doing and maybe could have been momentarily totally frantic at some point trying to make sense of the predicament he was in. But who is to say he persisted in despair? They ought to have given him the benefit of the doubt rather than ditch the whole beatification process.

Once again, if any of this was true. It's very creepy but I'm not entirely convinced it is true.

I've also heard that there were relics of him and the beatification process simply lost steam in the 1600s.

From Catholic Encyclopedia:
[quote]He was laid to rest in the eastern cloister in a spot carefully noted by the continuator of his chronicle. Two centuries after the Reformation, during which the priory was destroyed, the holy remains were transferred to Zwolle and enclosed in a handsome reliquary by Maximilian Hendrik, Prince-Bishop of Cologne. At present they are enshrined in St. Michael's Church, Zwolle, in a magnificent monument erected in 1897 by subscriptions from all over the world and inscribed: "Honori,non memoriae Thomae Kempensis, cujus nomen perennius quam monumentum" (To the honour not to the memory of Thomas à Kempis, whose name is more enduring than any monument). It is interesting to recall that the same Maximilian Hendrik, who showed such zeal in preserving and honouring the relics of à Kempis, was also eager to see the cause of his beatification introduced and began to collect the necessary documents; but little more than a beginning was made when he died (1688) and since that date no further steps have been taken.[/quote]

Maybe his cause just got lost in the Vatican paperwork. :blink:

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Thy Geekdom Come

[quote name='slywakka250' date='Apr 17 2005, 12:47 AM'] this is pretty frightening, I hope I am prepared for death enough as to be able to hold on to hope untill the end, so we are to face death with little or no fear? [/quote]
We strive to love God, and love conquers fear. :)

Make it your life's work to love God, and you will not fear death.

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Mickey's_Girl

LOL! This subject cracks me up!

1. That whole "we opened the casket and found" sequence sounds fishy to me. I'd like to see a sounder source than "the legend says"...surely somewhere there's more info?

2. Momentary panic does not equal despair. Obviously, even if he WERE buried alive, he *seemed* dead enough to them that, if he did wake up underground, he probably didn't know what was going on at first, and probably would have freaked.

3. Maybe they used to make coffins differently, but I've never seen one where there's enough room that you could bend your elbows so as to pull out your hair.

LOL!

(by the way: "saved by the bell" doesn't come from premature burial. The explanation is found at this link:[url="http://www.snopes.com/language/phrases/1500.htm"]Saved By the Bell[/url]


[quote]Saved by the bell is a 1930s term from the world of boxing, where a beleaguered fighter being counted out would have his fate delayed by the ringing of the bell to signify the end of the round. [/quote]

More on "buried alive" (she mentions Thomas, but says there were "scratches" on the coffin--nothing about hair...hmm...): [url="http://www.snopes.com/horrors/gruesome/buried.htm"]Buried Alive[/url]

4. I don't know (never having been present at a martyrdom), but my guess is that the people who endure martyrdom are given a special grace to deal with it. It's not like we have to convince ourselves to be strong enough ahead of time. Our business is to get as close to God as we can and be as obedient to him as possible, and if he chooses a martyr's death for us, so be it. Not only are we not supposed to despair, but we're not supposed to worry about the future either. God will help us through it when it comes.

5. My guess is that dear old Thomas a Kempis got lost in the paperwork. Happens all the time. All I know is, he seemed to be well-loved by both JPII and John XXIII (they quote him a lot, and John XXIII anyway used him for a devotional, at least while he was in seminary). Hurrah for TaK!!!

MG

Edited--I went and looked up that quote that Ash Wednesday posted. I'm thinking that if there were any doubt about his acceptability, it would definitely be listed in the Catholic Encyclopedia.

Edited by Mickey's_Girl
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