HartfordWhalers Posted September 4, 2004 Share Posted September 4, 2004 This is a spin-off discussion of GoodFriday's: "Life begins at conception... or does it?" thread. I think the question would be better posed not: "Does life begin at conception?" but, "Is the soul infused at conception?" It is clear that the conceived embryo is a human being, but does he have a soul immediately at conception? It would seem that the soul is not infused until a later time, as St. Thomas Aquinas taught. This is, in my opinion, the only logical conclusion because an embryo that splits to form twins or triplet would then need to either have 2 or 3 souls. If it did not, then the new babies would have 1/2 or 1/3 of a soul. If the embyro DOES have 2 or 3 souls, then what if it is murdered via IUD or other means that kills the embryo immediately? How could it still have 3 souls? Let alone the fact that the idea of a person having more than one soul at any time during his life has never been endorsed, as far as I know, by any theologian at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted September 4, 2004 Share Posted September 4, 2004 The soul is infused at conception. If one egg becomes twins or triplets, then God provides the required number of souls at the required time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted September 4, 2004 Share Posted September 4, 2004 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Sep 4 2004, 05:18 PM'] The soul is infused at conception. If one egg becomes twins or triplets, then God provides the required number of souls at the required time. [/quote] Ditto. I've heard this argument before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoketos Posted September 4, 2004 Share Posted September 4, 2004 Let me qualify this by saying that I am Thomist. St Thomas did get some very few things wrong, though is so very awesome, so that even though he is a doctor of the church nothing he wrote is infallialbe... Some times he lacked some metaphysical tools and full knowledge of biology, but most of time he is brilliantly right. St. Thomas Pray for us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoketos Posted September 4, 2004 Share Posted September 4, 2004 After thinking about it for a sec... A necessary quality for a human being is a soul, thus for a baby to be alive it would necessitate a soul. Other wise there would be more then one substantial change, and I think that one substanial change occurs at conception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HartfordWhalers Posted September 5, 2004 Author Share Posted September 5, 2004 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Sep 4 2004, 04:18 PM'] The soul is infused at conception. If one egg becomes twins or triplets, then God provides the required number of souls at the required time. [/quote] So then the soul is [b]not[/b] infused at conception. You said when a twin comes, God infuses the soul. That means that there are now two souls, but there was only one at conception. Therefore, the soul of the "second" twin was NOT infused at conception... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted September 5, 2004 Share Posted September 5, 2004 Actually, chances are there may have been two to begin with, which caused the seperation that we're talking about now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted September 5, 2004 Share Posted September 5, 2004 [quote name='Theoketos' date='Sep 4 2004, 07:08 PM'] After thinking about it for a sec... A necessary quality for a human being is a soul, thus for a baby to be alive it would necessitate a soul. Other wise there would be more then one substantial change, and I think that one substanial change occurs at conception. [/quote] and then if you want to follow through with a soul not being infused at conception, the way to say life starts at conception even if there is no soul is turtillian's "he who will be man is man already", like it's human from the moment of conception because it's going to be human Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HartfordWhalers Posted September 5, 2004 Author Share Posted September 5, 2004 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Sep 4 2004, 09:00 PM'] Actually, chances are there may have been two to begin with, which caused the seperation that we're talking about now. [/quote] Like I said in the original post, what theologian at all has ever said it is possible for one human being (the one embroy) to have two souls? It is only logical that the soul is infused at some later time. It is impossible to at conception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted September 5, 2004 Share Posted September 5, 2004 [url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=4295"]http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=4295[/url] Doesn't cover the twins situation though. Don't have time right now, ND is on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HartfordWhalers Posted September 5, 2004 Author Share Posted September 5, 2004 ND? I would assume you would like a Catholic school! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted September 5, 2004 Share Posted September 5, 2004 [quote name='HartfordWhalers' date='Sep 4 2004, 09:14 PM'] Like I said in the original post, what theologian at all has ever said it is possible for one human being (the one embroy) to have two souls? It is only logical that the soul is infused at some later time. It is impossible to at conception. [/quote] How familiar are you with Aristotle and Augustine? The soul is incorporeal. It is infused at conception, and can be proven if you'd like. It is the soul that shapes the body and gives life to the person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HartfordWhalers Posted September 5, 2004 Author Share Posted September 5, 2004 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Sep 5 2004, 12:27 AM'] How familiar are you with Aristotle and Augustine? The soul is incorporeal. It is infused at conception, and can be proven if you'd like. It is the soul that shapes the body and gives life to the person. [/quote] I find it strange that you ask me about St. Augustine and then say you can prove that the soul is infused at conception. St. Augustine did not believe that the soul is infused at conception. He believed that the soul was infused when the baby in the womb kicked, if I do recall correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted September 5, 2004 Share Posted September 5, 2004 [quote name='HartfordWhalers' date='Sep 4 2004, 06:51 PM'] So then the soul is [b]not[/b] infused at conception. You said when a twin comes, God infuses the soul. That means that there are now two souls, but there was only one at conception. Therefore, the soul of the "second" twin was NOT infused at conception... [/quote] You seem to be operating under the misconceived notion that God could somehow be surprised by the splitting of the fertilized ovum into more than one being. Clearly, God can infuse the proper soul or souls into the living matter without any delay. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception clarified the teaching of the Church on this matter. St. Thomas Aquinas was in error on this topic, because from the first moment of her conception Mary was in a state of grace, and this requires that she have a soul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted September 5, 2004 Share Posted September 5, 2004 [quote name='HartfordWhalers' date='Sep 5 2004, 12:54 AM'] I find it strange that you ask me about St. Augustine and then say you can prove that the soul is infused at conception. St. Augustine did not believe that the soul is infused at conception. He believed that the soul was infused when the baby in the womb kicked, if I do recall correctly. [/quote] His error was due to his ignorance. He did not know what we do today. But using their language, the soul would have to begin at conception, knowing what we do today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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