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...Why is it that...


Chris Zewe

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Brother Adam

[quote name='Chris Zewe' date='Jan 2 2005, 04:54 PM'] [i]Missionaries do not go forth and say, "CONVERT OR BURN ETERNALLY." They aren't good missionaries if they try to convert people by that method. [/i]

...It's more subtle than that. Common sense still appears to be beyond the grasp of this board... [/quote]
Or maybe it's just [i]you.[/i] ;)

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crusader1234

[quote]Yes, I understand that, but no one does except other Muslims living in the Middle East and a scant few elsewhere.

And hey, I remember you from before I was banned...
[/quote]

Muslims are free to not aknowledge any Catholic martyrs - it all boils down to what you believe in.

I'm also glad you're back. I remember you make quite interesting debates.

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[quote name='crusader1234' date='Jan 2 2005, 04:13 PM']
Muslims are free to not aknowledge any Catholic martyrs - it all boils down to what you believe in.

I'm also glad you're back. I remember you make quite interesting debates. [/quote]
I've always felt that a martyr was someone who intentionally gave their life for a cause...not someone who has a knife slipped between their ribs in their sleep...then again, I'm probably wrong. What I'm trying to say is that I don't consider missionaries who were killed to be martyrs.

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crusader1234

Lets use the Canadian Martyrs for an example. They knew going across the Atlantic into Iroquois and Huron land that they were putting themselves at great risk. If you read the Jesuit Relations (which, incidentally, I actually don't reccomend since they're boring) you'd realise that they knew the risk they were in. They knew there was a chance of death, and they died in the line of duty.

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That's my point. RISKING your life is different than going in with the intention of actually GIVING it, with no chance at all of survival.

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[quote name='Chris Zewe' date='Jan 2 2005, 04:06 PM'] That's what Christianity is, dear. You either believe and spend eternity singing songs of praise in heaven, or you burn in hell for not believing. How do they NOT portray it?

[/quote]
Of course, this is the basic gist of the Catholic faith. Without all the ribbons and bows, it comes down to that: you believe in Jesus Christ and all the Catholic faith is, or you spend eternity regretting that you didn't. This is the truth, but the only people I've seen preaching in this method are Jehovah's Witnesses and a rare few others.

"Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ" -Ephesians 4:15

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[quote name='Tink' date='Jan 2 2005, 04:24 PM'] Of course, this is the basic gist of the Catholic faith. Without all the ribbons and bows, it comes down to that: you believe in Jesus Christ and all the Catholic faith is, or you spend eternity regretting that you didn't. This is the truth [/quote]
That's precisely why I loathe Christian-like religions.

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My understand of a martyr is someone who's life is taken from them because of their faith. Regardless, of risk of intentional giving.

What do you think about Oscar Romero? (Is his last name spelled correctly?) He was an Archbishop is South America (Ecuador? Peru? Oh dear...) He had a Catholic community down there, as well as saw to it that the other members of the community were fed and taken care of. He was shot at the moment of Consencration beacuse of his beliefs. I certainly consider him a martyr. He didn't wear a sign that said "kill me, I'm Catholic", nor did he go looking for trouble. He lived his life and ministered to those around him, and he was killed because of it.

What's the old corny saying about "being the only Gospel someone reads". As Catholics we are called to live our lives reflecting the faith we believe. Missionaries are prime examples of this. They don't need to preach and "shove Baptism of Hell" down people's throats. God is in charge of the conversion of hearts, missionaries are just sort of the catalyst.

~Havilynne

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JMJ
1/2 - St. Basil the Great

This is what I believe the Church teaches on the subject of martyrdom, as expressed by St. Thomas Aquinas.

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/312400.htm"]IIaIIae. q. 124 - Martyrdom[/url]

Read that before you post again on what you "think" about martyrdom.

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[quote name='HavilyRose' date='Jan 2 2005, 04:35 PM'] My understand of a martyr is someone who's life is taken from them because of their faith. Regardless, of risk of intentional giving.

What do you think about Oscar Romero? (Is his last name spelled correctly?) He was an Archbishop is South America (Ecuador? Peru? Oh dear...) He had a Catholic community down there, as well as saw to it that the other members of the community were fed and taken care of. He was shot at the moment of Consencration beacuse of his beliefs. I certainly consider him a martyr. He didn't wear a sign that said "kill me, I'm Catholic", nor did he go looking for trouble. He lived his life and ministered to those around him, and he was killed because of it.

What's the old corny saying about "being the only Gospel someone reads". As Catholics we are called to live our lives reflecting the faith we believe. Missionaries are prime examples of this. They don't need to preach and "shove Baptism of Hell" down people's throats. God is in charge of the conversion of hearts, missionaries are just sort of the catalyst.

~Havilynne [/quote]
Too many things to respond to...pick one at a time.

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[quote name='Pio Nono' date='Jan 2 2005, 04:35 PM'] JMJ
1/2 - St. Basil the Great

This is what I believe the Church teaches on the subject of martyrdom, as expressed by St. Thomas Aquinas.

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/312400.htm"]IIaIIae. q. 124 - Martyrdom[/url]

Read that before you post again on what you "think" about martyrdom. [/quote]
[url="http://www.new"]http://www.new[/url][b]advent[/b].org/summa/312401.htm was the URL you gave me. I'd prefer an unbiased view.

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Take St.Stephen, who was stoned to death because of his belief in Jesus. Now he is a martyr. Cant even compare that to a crazy Muslim who loads him self up with explosives and kills children and innocent people in the name of "God" give me a break. There's a line.

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JMJ
1/2 - St. Basil the Great

I gave you the link to St. Thomas Aquinas' [i]Summa Theologica[/i]; I made no secret that it is the Church's teaching. You want to know why we disagree with what you think martyrdom is, then there it is.

Either look at the argument and attack it or stifle it.

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