Calling All Apologists

[Aloysius]

*edit*

In hitting upon the first Catholic apologetics website I could find on the Real Presence, I found an excellent explanation of Augustines view of the Real Presence. I had forgotten that we as Catholics believe a Sacrament to be both a sign which points to a reality, and the reality itself. Augustines assertions, therefore, that the Eucharist is a symbol, in no way negate his statements in other writings that It is the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ.

2. Purgatory, and its existance

3. Infused vs. Imputed Justification

4. Sola Fide vs. Non-Sola Fide

5. The Council of Trent - Did it Deny the Sufficency of Grace?

So, who would like to take me on?

Holy Spirit, speak to me, speakthrough me, let ICTHUS hear the words and understand. open his heart and expel all doubt he has in your one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

2. Jesus Christ said we must be perfect to be in heaven. do u think that only the ppl that die perfect make it in? i'm pretty sure heaven would be like... empty. so they havta be purified with the fire of God's love before entering. plus i'm convinced with IronMonk's assertion that the Jewish ppl were teaching it a hundred years before Christ... 2 Maccabees where the ppl who had commited idolatry were prayed for and sacrifices offered up for them... Judas Maccabeus said it was a good action to pray for the dead or something, and everyone understood because it wasn't something he was making up anew, this was something the Jews always did. anyway, where do u think Jesus pulled Lazurus's soul out of? we all know that once you're in hell, you're there for eternity. once you're in heaven, you're there for eternity. where was Lazurus's soul? it was in Purgatory as far as im concerned, maybe someone could find if there's a Church teaching on where it was, but as far as i can tell, it was bein purified, it was sleeping in God's purifying presence, and Christ woke it up back in it's body on earth.

3. Jesus didn't say we must appear perfect to enter the kingdom of heaven, He said we must BE perfect to enter the kingdom of heaven. if He just puts this big "spiritual bandaid" over us, we aren't perfect at the core, we're just perfect on the outside. God justifies through the cross, He doesn't just ignore and hide our sins, He forgives them and forgets them.

4. ever wonder why Martin Luther wanted to cut James out of the Bible like he did to the deuterocanonicals?

James Chapter 2

14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?

15 And if a brother or sister be naked and want daily food:

16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit?

17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.

18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works. Shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.

19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou that faith did cooperate with his works and by works faith was made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God.

24 Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?

25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers and sending them out another way?

26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead: so also faith without works is dead.

u see, theoretical "sola fide" is aight... as long as that faith has works,,, wait,,, that's not faith ALONE i guess, but faith and works combined as one. the devils have faith that God exists. it is a dead faith. but a good Catholic will have faith that God exists, and keep it alive by works. God gives us a free gift of grace, but this gift is like the gift of a puppy. we must feed it works and give it the water of faith, or it will be dead. people in hell are dead, and have a dead faith, people in heaven are full of life with a faith that is alive by works.

5. i donno alot about the Council of Trent. i'd havta reply to u on a thread where you were talking about the Council of Trent and see if the Spirit will show me what it means, and if not, i shall consult Church documents... or less work, consult IronMonk.

B) wooooah that's a long post. it's like ironmonk style, but with less ECF quotes.

[ironmonk]

Many of you have seen my last thread "Doubting my faith".

Well, I thought that the best way to allay my doubts is to assume the position that I am leaning towards, debate it (even if I may not necessarily agree with it yet) to the best of my ability, and (hope) you guys are able to refute me with convincing evidence.

Kinda like what Scott Hahn did when he converted to Catholicism, except in reverse.

Just to let you guys know, if I became a prot, I'd lean towards either the Presbyterian or Episcopalian church.

Who would be up to it?

Also, I am abstaining from the Blessed Eucharist until my doubts are allayed, or...well, let's hope it doesn't come to the other option!

Why do you listen to mustbenothing?

Why don't you do some real research?

Everything muste says can be refuted with little study.

http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/

http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZINDEX.HTM

http://www.Catholicity.com

http://www.Catholic-Pages.com

Has it dawned on you yet? He suffers from the same major flaw that all anti-Catholics suffer from...

The only way they can build up their church is to try to attack Catholicism and twist the writings of the Church.

If they really had the Truth, then they would focus on the good qualities of it, they wouldn't have to attack any other faith.

If you notice, the Catholic Church focuses on teaching the truth, not tarring down other's faith.

All the so called reformers can be counted in the following verse, including presbyterian and episcopalian :

Acts 20:30 And from your own group, men will come forward perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them.

If you are really thinking about becoming prot, knowing full well that the Catholic Church was built by Christ, then meditate deeply on this verse:

Luke 10:16 "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me"

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

[Aloysius]

BUMP!

ICTHUS, thoughts on our explanations?

[Guest jrob8503]

I'm still fearful of telling my family of my recent detachment from Church theology. I don't know what my mother will think and am not yet ready to tell her. I am still going to mass and receiving the Eucharist . Though I don't believe it to be the Eucharist anymore.

[hyperdulia again]

take it from me guys, run as far as you want, you'll never get away.

[Dave]

I am still going to mass and receiving the Eucharist . Though I don't believe it to be the Eucharist anymore.

NOOOOOOO!!!!! Sometimes we may struggle with Church teachings, and so then it's OK to receive Holy Communion. But if you let those struggles actually turn into unbelief, then you have NO BUSINESS receiving Holy Communion. It's a mortal sin for a Catholic to refuse to believe in or agree with ANY Church teaching. Including the teaching on the Real Presence. As St. Paul said, if you eat the Lord's Body or drink His Blood without discerning that that is what you're eating or drinking, then you eat and drink judgment on yourself! In addition, receiving Holy Communion is, among other things, a sign that you are in communion with the Catholic Church and its teachings. If you receive Holy Communion while not accepting all the Church's teachings, your reception of Holy Communion is a lie -- saying you accept it all when you really don't.

To receive Holy Communion while not in communion with the Church or while in the state of mortal sin is another mortal sin -- sacrilege!