Oik Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 I have met Fr. Vollor, he is a fine priest. I love Holy Rosary! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightoftheImmaculate1 Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Even if the argument is not of "the end justifies the means" as you say, you are still wrong in the following: [quote]Whether or not I listen to devilish drums and bass guitars seems out of that realm of instruction.[/quote] If the music is truly devilish like you say then it is a hindrance to faith and morality and thus the Pope may teach in regards to it, and this teaching can be infallible. There is a distinction between good and bad music; such a distinction is the most basic principle of morality and thus again the Pope may teach infallibly on it whether it is the instrumentation or the lyrics. Remember to that the Sacraments are God's gift to us and not our gift to Him. The Sacrifice of the Mass, which produces the Sacrament of the Eucharist is what God has given to us, and not what we give to Him. It is God's expression not ours. Servvs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightoftheImmaculate1 Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 (edited) [quote]"Rock", on the other hand, is the expression of elemental passions, and at rock festivals it assumes a cultic character, a form of worship, in fact, in opposition to Christian worship. People are, so to speak, released from themselves by the experience of being part of a crowd and by the emotional shock of rhythm, noise, and special lighting effects. However, in the ecstasy of having all their defenses torn down, the participants sink, as it were, beneath the elemental force of the universe. The music of the Holy Spirit's sober inebriation seems to have little chance when self has become a prison, the mind is a shackle, and breaking out from both appears as a true promise of redemption that can be tasted at least for a few moments [/quote] The Pope talks about instrumentation here, thus you would have to reason that anything, including "holy" lyrics, put to such rhythms is contrary to Christian worship. Someone stated that they have trouble with this statement of the Holy Father because they think that it could have a positive fruit. They say that since the music opens someone up through its effects, why not inject them with the Spirit when they are in such a state. Such an idea is not good. It is not good because what happens is that the will of the person is overriden and something is forced upon the person. God does not operate this way, He gave us a free will precisely because He wants us to use it to grow in love for Him. If this will is overriden through the things that the Pope mentions (lights, rhythms, etc) but with a "good message", . it will create a love of God that is imperfect. It will create a love that is limited by an override of the senses and not a love that is developed through a free act of the will. Now some might object to what I have said with the following question: "But what if this outside force is something that is holy? What if the submission is to God" This may be answered with an understanding of a conscious decision. If such music forces the will into loving God, the decision to love God is not really a conscious decision - it is a result of manipulation by an outside force. The decision is forced upon the person and thus the person is not choosing to make the decision. To make a conscious decision one has to be in full control of his will. We know that God wants us to make a conscious decision because He gave us a free will, which means we have the choice to choose what we will and will not accept. God does not want us to say "God, you make me love you." He wants us to seek Him no matter what the cost or sacrifice so that we may truly and with full consciousness say "God, I love you." Servvs Servvs Edited June 24, 2005 by KnightoftheImmaculate1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oik Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 Tehn Cardinal Ratzinger's comments hold a thouroughly thought through and wise perspective on rock music. I have experienced an experience, an epiphany that followed that led me to a similar insight. Especially in America, we get stuck in a certain way. Whether it is music, liturgy or art, we get stuck in thinking that a ceratin way is the best yet or better than what we had. We have to go back to the the immense treasure we already have, then, in the tradition of this treasure, allow God to work and unfold through us. This is our call as artists. Honestly, do we musicians, artisits, liturgists, etc. truly have a hold on the beauty of this treasure? From experiences in all cases, it is clear we do not. Then Cardinal Ratzinger makes excellent points on these subjects in the book Ratzinger report. We should not resist the progressive nature of the Church (for she truly does progress), and yet we should indeed learn from the oversights of the near past. With this we should embrace the progressive nature of the Church and allow ourselves, through study, practice, and education, to cooperate with The Blessed Trinity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightoftheImmaculate1 Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 good point. Servvs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanmeyersmusic Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 devilish was a sarcastic adjective, obviously lost... my apologies for not being more clear. there have been countless fruitless studies on the effects of particular types of MUSIC (not lyrical content, just musical composition) on psychology, each either ending with no evidence one way or the other, or pointing in the directoin that they wanted it to when the study began. Since trained mental health professionals have been unable to speak authoritatively on the effects different types of composition have, i find it discouraging that then Cardinal Ratzinger considered himself authority enough to issue such a statement. Also, Gregorian chant was invented far after the institution of the Eucharist, so the argument of "Sacred Music" being stagnant and unchangeable is a very loosely based one. In reality, chant or classical music evokes a MUCH more emotional response from me. I find this to be a GOOD thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oik Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 [quote]i find it discouraging that then Cardinal Ratzinger considered himself authority enough to issue such a statement. [/quote] Read his writings! I tell you read his writings! Called to Communion, the Church as Communion, The Ratzinger Report, Introduction to Chrisitanity, Spirit of the Liturgy, ect., ect. [quote]In reality, chant or classical music evokes a MUCH more emotional response from me. I find this to be a GOOD thing.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semperviva Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 well yes technically we should never have sexual type ryhthm in the Liturgy and such- but we need to look at the particular situations and examine the cultural context for the exceptions, i think there are defintely exceptions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanmeyersmusic Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 [quote]well yes technically we should never have sexual type ryhthm in the Liturgy[/quote] is that 6/8 or 4/4? sorry... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanmeyersmusic Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 1000 posts! (well, now 1001...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semperviva Posted June 25, 2005 Share Posted June 25, 2005 [quote name='BeenaBobba' date='May 7 2005, 07:12 PM']Have you seen [i]Schindler's List[/i]? The Nazis forced some Jews to act against other Jews. Does that mean that the Jews who were forced to act against their own people were Nazis? Of course not! Likewise, Ratzinger was no Nazi. Obviously, there is a difference between being forced into action and choosing action on one's own accord. [right][snapback]585685[/snapback][/right] [/quote] the quote ratzinger was anazi........ hitler youth.......... big differnce.... alot of 12 year old boys do um intersting things..... 6/8 or 4/4-hahhahaaaaaaa can't say i would know, lol ask someone else 4/4 is the rumor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted June 25, 2005 Share Posted June 25, 2005 [quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 24 2005, 07:09 PM']hitler youth.......... big differnce.... alot of 12 year old boys do um intersting things..... [/quote] Ratzinger was[b] forced [/b]into the Hitler Youth. It was compulsory at the time, NOT voluntary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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