Eastern rites have the old creed?!

[Ziggamafu]

SO yesterday I went to a Ukranian (sp?) rite Catholic parish. Why? Because the name of the parish was Holy Ascension and I wanted to gain the plenary indulgence involved (I live in a state where the day is bumped to Sunday, or Saturday night). I had never been to a eastern rite parish before...

...I guess I must have been confused. I thought the only difference was in style, presentation, culture, etc. They acknowledge the pope, and they show up on masstimes.org, AND a lady there explained to me that they are not Orthodox, but Catholic.

BUT the Creed didn't have the "fililique" or however that's spelled. WHAT THE carp?!! Isn't that something kind of ESSENTIAL to unity??! But since my sponsor told me they were kosher and they said they were kosher and they acknowledged Benedict as their holy "ecumenical" father, I received Eucharist anyway.

Explain?

[SarahB]

I hope I'm not breaking any forum rules(I'm new here ).....but I'm going to post a link to a message board on the website for the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church(of which I am a member.) There's a topic on there that may be able to help you better understand the situation.

[url="http://www.byzcath.org/bboard/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=003119#000000"]Filioque[/url]

Basically....to summarize, we believe the same thing it's just worded differently. And....if you read the topic, you'll see that when Pope John Paul II celebrated the Divine Liturgy in the Eastern Churches, he would omit the filioque.

God bless,
Sarah

[drewmeister2]

Yes, exactly. Think of it this way. The Apostle's Creed doesnt have everything that is said in the Nicene Creed. But does that make the Apostle's Creed wrong? No. Same thing here. The EC's just follow a more traditional Nicene Creed, as the Filioque clause didnt come till after the Fathers first made the Creed. Just because the Filioque is omitted in the EC parishes, doesnt mean they dont believe it.

[Ziggamafu]

hmm...

...uh, isn't it a big no-no to alter the creed? I've also read a brief Orthodox apologetic recently that said the Roman Church didn't have the authority to add the filioque in the first place since canons drawn up when it was first created said it was never to be altered. So they believe that the creed with the filioque is heretical.

Anyway, if eastern rites are in full communion with the Roman Church it would seem that at least the creed would have to be spoken in the same way...

[p0lar_bear]

First, the Latin rite altered the creed, not the Eastern rites.

Second, liturgical laws allow Eastern Churches in communion with Rome to retain their practice of reciting the creed without the filioque. In fact, when Pope John Paul II concelebrated an Eastern Rite liturgy, he omitted the filioque.

[theculturewarrior]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='May 9 2005, 06:09 AM'] hmm...

...uh, isn't it a big no-no to alter the creed? I've also read a brief Orthodox apologetic recently that said the Roman Church didn't have the authority to add the filioque in the first place since canons drawn up when it was first created said it was never to be altered. So they believe that the creed with the filioque is heretical.

Anyway, if eastern rites are in full communion with the Roman Church it would seem that at least the creed would have to be spoken in the same way... [/quote]
The Orthodox believe a lot of different things. Some of them would tell you that the theology behind the filioque is good, but that it is a barrier to unity.

Personally, the Church has altered a lot of things that were "never" to be "altered." I'm glad too. Chesterton said, "Once a thing has stopped growing (ie the Church), it has died." Be sure to read what the Catholic apologists have to say about the filioque as well.

[thessalonian]

Alternate forms of the creed (like alternate forms of the Roman Missal) can be created by proper authorities. The restrictions against such action are against those without the authority to do so. A similar situation is that there are alternate Eucharistic prayers. Now locally I have heard some that are not official. These are illicit. Yet the magesterium can create alternate forms. If JP II used the Eastern Creed I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Blessings

[theculturewarrior]

[url="http://web.archive.org/web/20031204112815/http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ251.HTM"]http://web.archive.org/web/20031204112815/...smus/RAZ251.HTM[/url]

[SarahB]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='May 9 2005, 06:09 AM'] hmm...

...uh, isn't it a big no-no to alter the creed? [/quote]
As the others have said, if it was being done by someone without the authority to do so, then yes. But a few years back, Pope John Paul II told the Eastern Rites to being going back to their traditions after being "latinized"(Like when Rome told us we couldn't have married priests anymore after centuries of it. Now we're allowed again) and omiting the Filioque was a part of that. Remember.....the original Creed didn't include the Filioque. It was added later on, as the Church's understanding of the nature of the Trinity grew. But....as I said before, we believe the same things we just say it differently. It's all part of the different ways that the Eastern Rite Churches express themselves.

[MilesChristi]

[quote]we believe the same things we just say it differently. It's all part of the different ways that the Eastern Rite Churches express themselves. [/quote]

Yeah, I have a friend who is Melkite Catholic, and they take the same position.


If anyone is interested, you might want to check out an ecumenical document released about two years ago by a group of Orthodox and Catholics attempting to come to a mutual understanding about the [i]filioque[/i] clause.

[url="http://www.usccb.org/seia/filioque.htm"]The Filioque: A Church-Dividing Issue?[/url]

Pray that all may be one in Christ...

[Apotheoun]

As a Byzantine Catholic I do not support the recitation of the creed with the [i]filioque[/i] in the Eastern Catholic Churches, because it is a theologoumenon of the Latin tradition, and so its recitation by Easterners makes no sense. Moreover, the Vatican itself has told the Eastern Catholic Churches that are in communion with the Pope that they are to be true to their own particular traditions, and that they should remove latinizations from their liturgical rites, including, but not limited to, the [i]filioque[/i].

Besides, the Pope, as Patriarch of the West, recognizes the normative value of the Nicene creed without the [i]filioque[/i], and this was made quite clear in the [u]Clarification on the Filioque[/u] issued by the Vatican in the mid 1990s, and more recently in the instruction [u] Dominus Iesus[/u] issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith back in August of 2000.

Here is a link to [u]Dominus Iesus[/u] which is found on the Vatican website (note: the opening paragraph of the instruction contains the Nicene creed without the [i]filioque[/i]), and below the link is a copy of the pertinent section of the Vatican's [u]Clarification on the Filioque[/u], which explains the normative value of the Nicene creed without the [i]filioque[/i]:

[url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html"][u]CDF Instruction Dominus Iesus[/u][/url]

[quote name='Clarification on the Filioque']The Catholic Church acknowledges the conciliar, ecumenical, normative, and irrevocable value, as expression of the one common faith of the church and of all Christians, of the Symbol professed in Greek at Constantinople in 381 by the Second Ecumenical Council.  No profession of faith peculiar to a particular liturgical tradition can contradict this expression of the faith taught and professed by the undivided Church.

On the basis of Jn 15:26, this Symbol confesses the Spirit "[i]to ek tou Patros ekporeuomenon[/i]" ("who takes his origin from the Father").  The Father alone is the principle without principle ([i]arche anarchos[/i]) of the two other persons of the Trinity, the sole source ([i]peghe[/i]) of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit, therefore, takes his origin from the Father alone ([i]ek monou tou Patros[/i]) in a principal, proper, and immediate manner.[/quote]

I hope this information helps clarify the situation.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='May 12 2005, 10:19 PM'] As a Byzantine Catholic I do not support the recitation of the creed with the [i]filioque[/i] in the Eastern Catholic Churches, because it is a theologoumenon of the Latin tradition, and so its recitation by Easterners makes no sense. [/quote]
fyi for those who don't know, it is my understanding that a "theologoumenon" is a valid but optional interpretation of Christian dogma. apotheoun, am i correct?

[quote]Moreover, the Vatican itself has told the Eastern Catholic Churches that are in communion with the Pope that they are to be true to their own particular traditions, and that they should remove latinizations from their liturgical rites, including, but not limited to, the [i]filioque[/i]. [/quote]
where has the vatican said this? in the documents you listed, or elsewhere?

[quote]Besides, the Pope, as Patriarch of the West, recognizes the normative value of the Nicene creed without the [i]filioque[/i], and this was made quite clear in the [u]Clarification on the Filioque[/u] issued by the Vatican in the mid 1990s, and more recently in the instruction [u] Dominus Iesus[/u] issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith back in August of 2000.[/quote]
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PCCUFILQ.HTM"][b]here[/b][/url] is the clarification that apotheoun is referring to.

[SarahB]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='May 13 2005, 01:33 AM'] where has the vatican said this? in the documents you listed, or elsewhere?


[/quote]
[url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_orientalium-ecclesiarum_en.html"]ORIENTALIUM ECCLESIARUM~Decree on the Catholic Churches of the Eastern Rite[/url]

[url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_02051995_orientale-lumen_en.html"]ORIENTALE LUMEN[/url]

[phatcatholic]

awesome, thanks

[SarahB]

No problem.