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Apologetic help - Anyone know latin?


thessalonian

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thessalonian

Can anyone translate these names?

Let me be more specific as to what I am looking for. I recieve a letter from Christian Research Institute in response to a questin about Pope Gelesius supposedly condemning the Assumption because he condemened the document:

Liber qui appellatur Transitus, id est Assumptio sanctae Mariae, apocryphus.

By the title which speaks of the Assumption the author of the letter and william webster assume that the Assumption is being condemned. This however is rather poor logic. I found a document for instance called "On Nature and Free Will" by Pelagius. :blink: So I suppose that the Catholic Church condemns free will as well. So if I can find something in the list below that is orthodox in title yet condemned it will help. I appreciate any efforts. Or perhaps someone has an online translation of this. I tried to google for one but couldn't find it. It is by Pope Gelasius at:
[url="http://www.christiantruth.com/gelasiusdecretum.html"]http://www.christiantruth.com/gelasiusdecretum.html[/url]

Actus nomine Andreae apostoli, apocryphi.
Actus nomine Thomae apostoli, libri 10 apocryphi.
Actus nomine Petri apostoli, apocryphi.
Actus nomine Philippi apostoli, apocryphi.
Evangelium nomine Thaddaei, apocryphum.
Evangelium nomine Matthiae, apocryphum.
Evangelium nomine Petri apostoli, apocryphum.
Evangelium nomine Jacobi Minoris, apocryphum.
Evangelium nomine Barnabae, apocryphum.
Evangelium [al. Evangelia] nomine Thomae quo [al. quibus] utuntur Manichaei, apocryphum [al. apocr.].
Evangelium [al. Evangelia] nomine Bartholomaei apostoli, apocryphum [al. apocrypha].
Evangelium nomine Andreae apostoli, apocryphum.
Evangelia quae falsavit Lucianus, apocrypha.
Liber de infantia Salvatoris, apocryphus.
Evangelia quae falsavit Esitius [al. Hesychius et Isicius], apocrypha.
Liber de Nativitate [al. Infantia] Salvatoris, et de Maria et obstetrice [al. addit. ejus], apocryphus.
Liber qui appellatur Pastoris, apocryphus.
Libri omnes quos fecit Leucius [al. Lucius] discipulus diaboli, apocryphi.
Liber qui appellatur Fundamentum, apocryphus.
Liber qui appellatur Thesaurus, apocryphus.
Liber de filiabus Adae geneseos, apocryphus.
Centimetrum de Christo, Virgilianis compaginatum versibus, apocryphum.
Liber qui appellatur Actus Teclae et Pauli apostoli, apocryphus.
Liber qui appellatur Nepotis, apocryphus.
Liber Proverbiorum qui ab haereticis conscriptus et sancti Sixti [al. Xysti] nomine praenotatus est, apocryphus.
Revelatio quae appellatur Pauli apostoli, apocrypha.
Revelatio quae appellatur Thomae apostoli, apocrypha.
Revelatio quae appellatur S. Stephani, apocrypha.
Liber qui appellatur Transitus, id est Assumptio sanctae Mariae, apocryphus.
Liber qui appellatur Poenitentia Adae, apocryphus.
Liber Ogiae nomine gigantis, qui ab haereticis cum dracone post diluvium pugnasse fingitur, apocryphus.
Liber qui appellatur Testamentum Job, apocryphus.
Liber qui appellatur Poenitentia Origenis, apocryphus.
Liber qui appellatur Poenitentia sancti Cypriani, apocryphus.
Liber qui appellatur Poenitentia Jamnae et Mambrae, apocryphus.
Liber qui appellatur Sortes sanctorum apostolorum, apocryphus.
Liber qui appellatur Laus [al. Lusus] apostolorum, apocryphus.
Liber qui appellatur Canones apostolorum, apocryphus.
Liber Physiologus, qui ab haereticis conscriptus est, et B. Ambrosii nomine signatus [al. praenotatus], apocryphus.
Historia Eusebii Pamphili, apocrypha.
Opuscula Tertulliani, apocrypha.
Opuscula Lactantii [al. Firmiani], apocrypha.
Opuscula Africani, apocrypha.
Opuscula Postumiani et Galli, apocrypha.
Opuscula Montani, Priscillae et Maximillae, apocrypha.
Opuscula omnia Fausti Manichaei, apocrypha.
Opuscula Commodiani, apocrypha.
Opuscula alterius Clementis Alexandrini, apocrypha.
Opuscula Tatii [al. Tharsi seu Tascii] Cypriani, apocrypha.
Opuscula Arnobii, apocrypha.
Opuscula Tychonii, apocrypha.
Opuscula Cassiani [al. Cassionis] presbyteri Galliarum, apocrypha.
Opuscula Victorini Pictaviensis [al. Petabionensis], apocrypha.
Opuscula Fausti Regensis Galliarum, apocrypha.
Opuscula Frumentii Caeci, apocrypha.
Epistola Jesu ad Abagarum [al. Abgarum] regem, apocrypha.
Epistola Abagari [al. Abgari] ad Jesum, apocrypha.
Passio Quirici [al. Cyrici] et Julitae, apocrypha.
Passio Georgii, apocrypha.


Actus nomine Andreae apostoli, apocryphi.
Actus nomine Thomae apostoli, libri 10 apocryphi.
Actus nomine Petri apostoli, apocryphi.
Actus nomine Philippi apostoli, apocryphi.
Evangelium nomine Thaddaei, apocryphum.
Evangelium nomine Matthiae, apocryphum.
Evangelium nomine Petri apostoli, apocryphum.
Evangelium nomine Jacobi Minoris, apocryphum.
Evangelium nomine Barnabae, apocryphum.
Evangelium [al. Evangelia] nomine Thomae quo [al. quibus] utuntur Manichaei, apocryphum [al. apocr.].
Evangelium [al. Evangelia] nomine Bartholomaei apostoli, apocryphum [al. apocrypha].
Evangelium nomine Andreae apostoli, apocryphum.
Evangelia quae falsavit Lucianus, apocrypha.
Liber de infantia Salvatoris, apocryphus.
Evangelia quae falsavit Esitius [al. Hesychius et Isicius], apocrypha.
Liber de Nativitate [al. Infantia] Salvatoris, et de Maria et obstetrice [al. addit. ejus], apocryphus.
Liber qui appellatur Pastoris, apocryphus.
Libri omnes quos fecit Leucius [al. Lucius] discipulus diaboli, apocryphi.
Liber qui appellatur Fundamentum, apocryphus.
Liber qui appellatur Thesaurus, apocryphus.
Liber de filiabus Adae geneseos, apocryphus.
Centimetrum de Christo, Virgilianis compaginatum versibus, apocryphum.
Liber qui appellatur Actus Teclae et Pauli apostoli, apocryphus.
Liber qui appellatur Nepotis, apocryphus.
Liber Proverbiorum qui ab haereticis conscriptus et sancti Sixti [al. Xysti] nomine praenotatus est, apocryphus.
Revelatio quae appellatur Pauli apostoli, apocrypha.
Revelatio quae appellatur Thomae apostoli, apocrypha.
Revelatio quae appellatur S. Stephani, apocrypha.
Liber qui appellatur Transitus, id est Assumptio sanctae Mariae, apocryphus.
Liber qui appellatur Poenitentia Adae, apocryphus.
Liber Ogiae nomine gigantis, qui ab haereticis cum dracone post diluvium pugnasse fingitur, apocryphus.
Liber qui appellatur Testamentum Job, apocryphus.
Liber qui appellatur Poenitentia Origenis, apocryphus.
Liber qui appellatur Poenitentia sancti Cypriani, apocryphus.
Liber qui appellatur Poenitentia Jamnae et Mambrae, apocryphus.
Liber qui appellatur Sortes sanctorum apostolorum, apocryphus.
Liber qui appellatur Laus [al. Lusus] apostolorum, apocryphus.
Liber qui appellatur Canones apostolorum, apocryphus.
Liber Physiologus, qui ab haereticis conscriptus est, et B. Ambrosii nomine signatus [al. praenotatus], apocryphus.
Historia Eusebii Pamphili, apocrypha.
Opuscula Tertulliani, apocrypha.
Opuscula Lactantii [al. Firmiani], apocrypha.
Opuscula Africani, apocrypha.
Opuscula Postumiani et Galli, apocrypha.
Opuscula Montani, Priscillae et Maximillae, apocrypha.
Opuscula omnia Fausti Manichaei, apocrypha.
Opuscula Commodiani, apocrypha.
Opuscula alterius Clementis Alexandrini, apocrypha.
Opuscula Tatii [al. Tharsi seu Tascii] Cypriani, apocrypha.
Opuscula Arnobii, apocrypha.
Opuscula Tychonii, apocrypha.
Opuscula Cassiani [al. Cassionis] presbyteri Galliarum, apocrypha.
Opuscula Victorini Pictaviensis [al. Petabionensis], apocrypha.
Opuscula Fausti Regensis Galliarum, apocrypha.
Opuscula Frumentii Caeci, apocrypha.
Epistola Jesu ad Abagarum [al. Abgarum] regem, apocrypha.
Epistola Abagari [al. Abgari] ad Jesum, apocrypha.
Passio Quirici [al. Cyrici] et Julitae, apocrypha.
Passio Georgii, apocrypha.

Thanks

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Mateo el Feo

This doesn't answer your question, but I thought that the results of the following search may be of use for this topic.

[url="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22Gelasius%22+%22Assumptio+sanctae+Mariae%22"]Google Search ("Gelasius" "Assumptio sanctae Mariae")[/url]

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Paphnutius

Well Roman Numeral One is simply a list of a canon that he accepted as Scripture. Roman Numeral Two talks about the book after the last Apostolic Scripture and I believe a decree he made about them with other bishops. I did not take them time to translate any of III and IV looks like a list of names that are bishops, priests, etc...

V is a list (which it appears that you are aware of) of apocryphal books which were not accepted (as canon?) As for the names, they should be pretty cognative...Like 1) Acts of the Apostle Andrew 2)Acts of the Apostle Thomas, 3)of the Apostle Peter, 4)of the Apostle Philip
If you really want a translation of them I can work on it and get it to you later, but one should be able to look and tell (Evangellium=Gospel, Liber(ri)=book, appellatur=which is called X, Epistle= letter, revelation=revelation, then the names should be easy to find out in English. Let me know though if that helps.

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thessalonian

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='May 24 2005, 10:10 AM'] Well Roman Numeral One is simply a list of a canon that he accepted as Scripture. Roman Numeral Two talks about the book after the last Apostolic Scripture and I believe a decree he made about them with other bishops. I did not take them time to translate any of III and IV looks like a list of names that are bishops, priests, etc...

V is a list (which it appears that you are aware of) of apocryphal books which were not accepted (as canon?) As for the names, they should be pretty cognative...Like 1) Acts of the Apostle Andrew 2)Acts of the Apostle Thomas, 3)of the Apostle Peter, 4)of the Apostle Philip
If you really want a translation of them I can work on it and get it to you later, but one should be able to look and tell (Evangellium=Gospel, Liber(ri)=book, appellatur=which is called X, Epistle= letter, revelation=revelation, then the names should be easy to find out in English. Let me know though if that helps. [/quote]
Yes that helps. I was thinking of translating it that way myself. If that is the method you are going to use I will do it later. I was just hopeing that someone fluent in latin might be able to see what I was looking for quickly in the list. I only want one title from the list that is "orthodox" in title like Pelagius's "On Nature and Free Will" could be interpruted if one had an axe to grind against the Church and wanted to say that it once condemned free will. That is eseentially what is going on here. They are saying that the document was condemned, assumption is in the Title, therefore the assumption was condemned with no text from the document to back it up.

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Paphnutius

Well I am not fluent in Latin, but that is what I came up with. Also are you sure that they are just basing off of the title and not the text? Also he lists it as apocryphal, books that were not recieved into the canon. Does that make it condemned?

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thessalonian

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' date='May 24 2005, 10:00 AM'] This doesn't answer your question, but I thought that the results of the following search may be of use for this topic.

[url="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22Gelasius%22+%22Assumptio+sanctae+Mariae%22"]Google Search ("Gelasius" "Assumptio sanctae Mariae")[/url] [/quote]
From your search this article looks very helpful.

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/15459A.htm"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/15459A.htm[/url]

Thanks

"And again we are told:

She appeared by day on the mountain where robbers had fallen upon people and sought to slay them. And these people cried out saying: 'O Lady Mary Mother of God, have mercy on us.' And she appeared before them like a flash of lightning, and blinded the eyes of the robbers and they were not seen by them" (ib., 49).

Of course the wild extravagance of this apocryphal literature cannot be questioned. It is all pure invention and a comparison of the various texts of the "Transitus" shows that this treatise in particular was continually being modified and added to in its various translations, so that we cannot be at all sure that the "Liber qui appellatur transitus, id est Assumptio, Sanctae Mariae apochryphus," condemned by Pope Gelasius in 494, was identical with the Syriac version just cited. But it is highly probable that this same Syriac version was then in existence, and apocryphal as the text may be, it undoubtedly testifies to the state of mind of at least the less instructed Christians of that period. Neither is it likely that feasts would be spoken of and ascribed to the institutions of the Apostles themselves if no such commemoration existed in the locality in which this fictitious narrative was so widely popular. In point of fact, scholars give good reason for believing that a feast described as mneme tes hagias Oeotokou kai aeikarthenou Marias was ceIebrated at Antioch as early as the year 370, while from the circumstance that it was connected with the Epiphany we may probably identify it with the first of the feasts referred to in the Syriac Transitus.
"

Seems kind of odd that if he were condmening the assumption itself he would not forbid the feasts.

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Paphnutius

Okay strike my earlier question about them being condemned. I did not see the closing paragraph. I read over it briefly and slopily, but it appears as though he used the anathema here.

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thessalonian

This looks like a translation of the list.
[url="http://www.tparents.org/Library/Religion/Christian/NT-Canon/lists.htm"]http://www.tparents.org/Library/Religion/C...Canon/lists.htm[/url]

This article and others indicates that it was not likely written by Gelasius.

[url="http://www.christiantruth.com/assumption.html"]http://www.christiantruth.com/assumption.html[/url] :blink:

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Paphnutius

[quote name='thessalonian' date='May 24 2005, 10:59 PM'] This looks like a translation of the list.
[url="http://www.tparents.org/Library/Religion/Christian/NT-Canon/lists.htm"]http://www.tparents.org/Library/Religion/C...Canon/lists.htm[/url]
[/quote]
Yes that first link has the list of books translated along with the closing paragraph under the title The Decretum Gelasianum. Sounds like what you were looking for.

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thessalonian

Okay, here is my response to the letter I recieved from CRI.

Dear Mr. John Peters,

I want to thank you for the time you took to respond to my email. I would like to say "respond to my question" as it was asked in such a many as to facilitate focus on the issue raised and honest discussion. You choose rather to take the shotgun approach and present a number of different issues, most of which I am intimately familiar with. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate hearing the view of those who do not understand what I believe. But I hope I can get you to narrow the focus so CRI will act responsibly in reporting history and making accusations against the Catholic Church that an intellectually honest evaluation will not support.
The issue was with Hank Saying that Pope Gelasius condemned the doctrine of the assumption of Mary. You sent me to a website by Mr. Webster that provided "proof" that Gelasius did condemn the doctrine. There is some question as to whether Gelasius actually wrote the document but let's put that aside. This "proof" was the condemnation of of a document "Transitus writing of the assumption of Mary". The logic goes something like this.

The document was condemned,
assumption is in the Title,
therefore the assumption was condemned

This conclusion is drawn with no text from the document to back it up, nor an explicit reason from Gelasius to back it up.

It could be that Mr. Webster was right. We don't have all of Pope Gelasius words concerning the document, both spoken and written. However we do know that the document was condemned in a listing of the canon of scripture. This is not much help either because it does not detail why the document was condemned. However we do have a document that is similar and even thought to perhaps be included in the Assumption document.

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/15459A.htm"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/15459A.htm[/url]
And again we are told:

"She appeared by day on the mountain where robbers had fallen upon people and sought to slay them. And these people cried out saying: 'O Lady Mary Mother of God, have mercy on us.' And she appeared before them like a flash of lightning, and blinded the eyes of the robbers and they were not seen by them" (ib., 49).

Of course the wild extravagance of this apocryphal literature cannot be questioned. It is all pure invention and a comparison of the various texts of the "Transitus" shows that this treatise in particular was continually being modified and added to in its various translations, so that we cannot be at all sure that the "Liber qui appellatur transitus, id est Assumptio, Sanctae Mariae apochryphus," condemned by Pope Gelasius in 494, was identical with the Syriac version just cited."

I highly recommend that you read the whole article as it sheds more light. But the most important point I would like to make regarding Mr. Webster's logic is that in drawing his conclusion that the document was condemned and so the assumption was, if we did not have the text of a certain document of Pelagius called "On Nature and Free Will" we could assume the Catholic Church was against free will because this document was condemned as well. You certainly can see the faulty logic going on here.

One last point (I could make many more). I hear Mr. Hanagraph chastizing the teachings of Mr. Hinn, Joyce Myers and others. Even books that have been written by various protestants. Ms. Meyers wrote a book called "Knowing God more intimately". Surely Mr. Hanagraph is not against that, though I am sure he would condemn some things that are written in it. It was the heretical writers who choose the title "The Assumption of Mary". Let's not put him to a different standard than we would hold Mr. Hanagraph.

I hope that your organization will be intellecutally honest in this discussion even if you do not agree with all that the Catholic Church teaches. I was listening to Mr. RC Scroll this morning on the way to work. He said that people who said that the Catholic Church teaches salvation by works (alone) are wrong and are slandering the Catholic Church. I applaud such intellecutal honesty. Certainly the commandment to not bear false witness is not intended as a command only applying to those we agree with. Here are a couple other related articles that shed light on the matter. I look forward to your response.

[url="http://www.tparents.org/Library/Religion/C...Canon/lists.htm"]http://www.tparents.org/Library/Religion/C...Canon/lists.htm[/url]

This article and others indicates that it was not likely written by Gelasius.

[url="http://www.christiantruth.com/assumption.html"]http://www.christiantruth.com/assumption.html[/url]

God bless

Edited by thessalonian
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daugher-of-Mary

PM Micah (Raphael) if you have any further questions...he's our resident Latin scholar

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Mateo el Feo

I agree that the tone of the letter is quite charitable.

If you haven't sent it yet, I'd like to offer some minor input.

Original:
[quote]I would like to say "respond to my question" as it was asked in such a many as to facilitate focus on the issue raised and honest discussion. You choose rather to take the shotgun approach and present a number of different issues, most of which I am intimately familiar with.[/quote]

Modified:
[quote]I would like to say "respond to my question," as it was asked in such a [u]way [/u]as to facilitate focus on the issue raised and honest discussion. You [u]chose [/u]rather to take the shotgun approach and present a number of different issues, most of which I am intimately familiar with.[/quote]

Extremely modified:
[quote]I would like to ask you to respond to my question instead of bringing up different issues.[/quote]

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phatcatholic

small correction here as well:[quote]The issue was with Hank [u]saying[/u] that Pope Gelasius condemned the doctrine of the assumption of Mary.[/quote]

you have an upper-case "s"

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