Jump to content
An Old School Catholic Message Board

Triumph: The Power and the Glory


Fidei Defensor

Recommended Posts

Guest Eremite

[quote] Please show me any scripture which says that Charity supercedes Truth[/quote]

I already have.

[quote]And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

--1Corinthians 13[/quote]

Having all "knowledge" of truth is useless unless you first have charity. Speaking truth "with the tongues of angels" is also useless, unless it is imbued with charity. St. Paul never says charity without knowledge is useless. Charity is the preeminent virtue, above even faith and hope. "Charity, the form of all the virtues, 'binds everything together in perfect harmony'" (CCC 1844).

[quote]but I didn't make the Claim that there was aspects of the Churches history which was Bad, YOU DID. So I ask agian please enlighten me, what exactly in the History of the Church was Bad.[/quote]

This is like asking someone to prove 2+2=4. Could they prove it? Sure. But the proof would be self-evident to anyone who has studied mathematics in its most basic form. What can I tell you? Maybe you need new books.

[quote]For although the Catholic Church has been endowed with all divinely revealed truth and with all means of grace, yet its members fail to live by them with all the fervor that they should, so that the radiance of the Church's image is less clear in the eyes of our separated brethren and of the world at large, and the growth of God's kingdom is delayed. All Catholics must therefore aim at Christian perfection and, each according to his station, play his part [b]that the Church may daily be more purified and renewed[/b]. For the Church must bear in her own body the humility and dying of Jesus, against the day when Christ will present her to Himself in all her glory without spot or wrinkle.

--Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, "Unitatis Redintegratio"[/quote]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Don John of Austria

[quote name='Eremite' date='Jun 11 2005, 06:18 AM']I already have.
Having all "knowledge" of truth is useless unless you first have charity. Speaking truth "with the tongues of angels" is also useless, unless it is imbued with charity. St. Paul never says charity without knowledge is useless. Charity is the preeminent virtue, above even faith and hope. "Charity, the form of all the virtues, 'binds everything together in perfect harmony'" (CCC 1844).
This is like asking someone to prove 2+2=4. Could they prove it? Sure. But the proof would be self-evident to anyone who has studied mathematics in its most basic form. What can I tell you? Maybe you need new books.
[right][snapback]609166[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


No you haven't you quoted saint Paul saying that without charity Faith is meaningless, wow, I don't see where that says that Charity is preeminint over Truth. You are reading far more than was inended into a very short Passage. It certianly never Claims that Charity comes first in any of these things only that it is needed for these things to have value. It is not like saving 2+2=4 it is like saying that 4 is first, that it is preeminent over 2, and if our Goal is 7 of course 4 is absolutly essential but it does not come before Truth, Truth is the foundation, without it Charity is meaningless drival, Truth to continue your analogy is 1it is the foundation for all things.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Don John of Austria

And so I ask agian please inform me--- what in the Church's History is Bad. Either put up or shut up. Make your case or withdraw your statement.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Brother Adam

Hey, how about not being an τρύπα γαιδάρων?

Every time the Church, as induviduals in the collective visible body of Christ's faithful sins, it is 'bad'.

Edited by Brother Adam
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Don John of Austria

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Jun 11 2005, 01:43 PM']Hey, how about not being an τρύπα γαιδάρων?

Every time the Church,  as induviduals in  the collective visible body of Christ's faithful sins, it is 'bad'.
[right][snapback]609309[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


Individuals are not the Church, individuals are members of the Church, individual sins are not reflections on the Church anymore than the behavior of an individual blood cell is reflective on your body.

Oh and I am not being anything, he made a very serious statement which he needs to justify or withdraw, so I say agian -- put up or shut up, support your statment or withdraw it.

Edited by Don John of Austria
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Brother Adam

Induviduals represent the Church, especially figures of authority such as Bishops and Popes. They indeed are reflections on the Bride of Christ for if there were no members of the Church there would be no Church. He did not call the Church bad, he called parts of the Churches history bad. Ditto. Some of the non-fallible statements and lifestyles of past Popes, Bishops, and priests, have reflected poorly on the Church, not to mention the sins of laymen acting on behalf of their Catholic faith. Every induvidual sin effects the whole Church. The sole reason this Church stands is because of Christ, a fact you would do good not to forget.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Eremite

DonJohn,

What would you do if I replied, and actually proved my assertion? Would you be satisfied? No. You would respond with 10 pages of argument. And I would respond with 10 pages of argument. And so on, and so on, ad infinitum.

I'm not going to respond, for that very reason. I see no chance for a reasoned discussion, without it becoming an occasion of pride for both of us.

So I'll leave it at that.

God bless.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fidei Defensor

Children, this thread was supposed to be about a book that i thought was good. If you want to debate out whether or not the Church was bad or all that fun stuff, please go to the debate board.

:wacko:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I read this book as well. As much as I enjoyed aspects of it and believe that it presents a perspective about Catholic (Christian) Church history that is sorely lacking in our media these days, I also believe that it white washes those areas where people acting in the name of the Church have done horrific things.

Our Church doesn't need white wash. We need plain talk. Flippancy (which is far too rampant in this book) might be entertaining to those "in the know," but it is useless in the defense of the faith. How can we respond to the sacking of Constantinople in 1204 in good faith without acknowledging the pain it has caused to our Eastern brethren?* Is it charitable of us to speak of crusades flippantly when we recognize that some people set out on crusades with purely selfish purposes?

I'm right up front in defending the Crusades as necessary. Without them, Christianity would've left the European continent much sooner. However, we also need to acnkowledge that not all who operated under the auspices of the Church were (or are) holy, compassionate people who intended to do the will of the Lord. That's a fault of humanity, not the Church.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok, ya'll want to debate take to the debate board.

Adam, not sure what those characters mean, but I doubt its charitable.

Chill out peeps, summer's just starting.

Brought to you by your friendly neighbor velvet hammer ... smacking down politely since 2002.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...