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Triumph: The Power and the Glory


Fidei Defensor

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Fidei Defensor

What a good book. :)

I started it earlier, and I am up to the death of Constantine. Its a great history book!

Okay, carry on as you were.

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Fides_et_Ratio

Yeah, I got it for Christmas, I didn't finish it (cuz I got a lot of Ratzinger books and I HAD to read those--and now I'm glad I did!)... but it was definitely a good read thus far.

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Guest Eremite

I threw this book away after reading the first few chapters.

His presentation of the inerrancy of Scripture is ambiguous, if not outright heterodox.

He makes some other strange statements at the beginning of the book. I recall recoiling at something he said about slavery, and also marriage.

Obviously, I didn't read the whole thing, but from what I hear, it's a rather triumphalistic book. Not good. We need good Catholic histories, but not populist polemics. It only hinders ecumenical relations, and turns people off to consideration of Catholicism.

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Fidei Defensor

[quote name='Eremite' date='Jun 9 2005, 10:18 PM']I threw this book away after reading the first few chapters.

His presentation of the inerrancy of Scripture is ambiguous, if not outright heterodox.

He makes some other stupid statements at the beginning of the book. I recall recoiling at something he said about slavery, and also marriage.

Obviously, I didn't read the whole thing, but from what I hear, it's a rather triumphalistic book. Not good. We need good Catholic histories, but not populist polemics. It only hinders ecumenical relations, and turns people off to consideration of Catholicism.
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That being said, its a good book for Catholics to use to understand our history, then teach protestants. I agree that its not one you would give to protestants if you want to work on peace.

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Guest Eremite

I don't think I would recommend it to Catholics (I might recommend it as a reference, but not to an average Catholic who wants to learn Church history).

Warren Carroll's series on the History of Christendom is an excellent resource for Catholics. It's scholarly, Catholic, and sensible.

A shorter volume I'd recommend is "A Short History of the Catholic Church" by Jose Orlandis.

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Fidei Defensor

[quote name='Eremite' date='Jun 9 2005, 10:27 PM']I don't think I would recommend it to Catholics (I might recommend it as a reference, but not to an average Catholic who wants to learn Church history).

Warren Carroll's series on the History of Christendom is an excellent resource for Catholics. It's scholarly, Catholic, and sensible.

A shorter volume I'd recommend is "A Short History of the Catholic Church" by Jose Orlandis.
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Although this book is straight forward and to the point, how i like them.

I guess we all have our preferences.

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yep, I agree w/ fidei. From what I've read so far,The Triumph, The PoWer...by H.W.Crocker III, is a good general review of history.

I like it, and yeah, I wouldn't use it to give to Protestants either, but just as a reference instead.

I don't know what would be a good book on history to give to non-Catholics.

I do know a slightly longer treatment of history would be the books by Dr. Anne Carroll, haven't read them yet. (not Warren Carroll's famous, but unfinished set of books-- these are shorter) They're history books that tell history w/ Jesus and the Church at the center of it. :cool: I know they're used by homeschoolers, so they're not a populist read like Crocker's either. There's one that focuses on history in America, so I got it to use as a reference w/ my students for school, but haven't started it yet.

edited to add 1st name to differentiate the Carrolls :) :lol:

Edited by luciana
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God Conquers

I wouldn't recommend it to NON-Catholis.

As a Catholic I had a fun time reading it. It's scholarly but ridiculously biased, and this amuses me. I would recommend it to Catholics who want to beef up on their confidence and polemic abilities, and have a good read as well.

I found it harsh and unrealistic in places, but as I have already said, enjoyed it. Do NOT give it to a weak Catholic or non-Catholic. It will overwhelm them and possibly jade them.

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Don John of Austria

I have not read the book but I think I might have to, it will be nice to read something written by a catholic which doesn't trash the Church for a change. If it is true( and agian I haven't read it) then I don't see any reason not to give it to Protestants, whats wrong with telling them the Truth for a change. If the Truth hurts, well smell of elderberries it up.

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It's not that the Truth will hurt, and so we can't give it to non-Caths., it's the writing style.

I like this book a lot :cool: , but I could see how it might hurt what one was trying to do by giving it to a non- Catholic.

here is a good review of the book by Fr.John McCloskey:

[url="http://www.catholicity.com/mccloskey/articles/triumph.html"]http://www.catholicity.com/mccloskey/articles/triumph.html[/url]

from the review: "Crocker does not claim to be a credentialed academic historian and not a few of his more provocative conclusions would be open to challenge and disagreement, even by amateurs. Nevertheless, he provides us with the perfect one volume companion to the more scholarly magisterial four volumes (a work in progress) of the noted historian, Dr. Warren Carroll, founder of Christendom College. Crocker's Triumph makes the history of the Church come alive in the spirit of Hilaire Belloc. "

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Guest Eremite

[quote]I wouldn't recommend it to NON-Catholis.[/quote]

This is the kind of mentality we need to get out of. We'll be nice when we're with Protestatns, but we can be snarky when they're not around.

The Church's ecumenical vision needs to penetrate all aspects of Catholic life. We should avoid polemics in Catholic histories, not just because others don't like it, but because it betrays a basic respect we should have for non-Catholics. Truth is not the only consideration. Charity is always preeminent. Embracing non-Catholics as brothers does not abolish the demands of truth, but it requires an honest commitment to charitable discourse and dialogue. Beating people over the head with history, or teaching Catholics to do so, is not dialogue.

[quote]True ecumenical activity means openness, drawing closer, availability for dialogue, and a shared investigation of the truth in the full evangelical and Christian sense; but in no way does it or can it mean giving up or in any way diminishing the treasures of divine truth that the Church has constantly confessed and taught. To all who, for whatever motive, would wish to dissuade the Church from seeking the universal unity of Christians the question must once again be put: Have we the right not to do it? Can we fail to have trust-in spite of all human weakness and all the faults of past centuries-in our Lord's grace as revealed recently through what the Holy Spirit said and we heard during the Council? If we were to do so, we would deny the truth concerning ourselves that was so eloquently expressed by the Apostle: "By the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace towards me was not in vain." (John Paul II, Encyclical Letter "Redemptor Hominis")[/quote]

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Guest Eremite

[quote name='God Conquers' date='Jun 9 2005, 11:08 PM']I agree that the Truth can't hurt...
However, being an ass can.
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Well said.

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Fidei Defensor

[quote name='Eremite' date='Jun 9 2005, 11:12 PM']This is the kind of mentality we need to get out of. We'll be nice when we're with Protestatns, but we can be snarky when they're not around.

The Church's ecumenical vision needs to penetrate all aspects of Catholic life. We should avoid polemics in Catholic histories, not just because others don't like it, but because it betrays a basic respect we should have for non-Catholics. Truth is not the only consideration. Charity is always preeminent. Embracing non-Catholics as brothers does not abolish the demands of truth, but it requires an honest commitment to charitable discourse and dialogue. Beating people over the head with history, or teaching Catholics to do so, is not dialogue.
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I agree that we cant be two faced, but we also cant water down what is the truth of the Church, and its glorious roots in history.

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