Rosary During Mass

[LSW]

Today at Mass there was an older lady sitting next to me and she was praying the Rosary during the Mass. I have seen people do this before. What do you all think? I think the Rosary should be prayed before or after but not during.

[Paphnutius]

I agree...The faithful are to have full, active, and conscious participation in the Mass. I believe that praying the rosary, however meritous that may be, is actually a hinderance to having the type of participation that we are asked to give. It is an excellent way to meditate on the mysteries before Mass so as to be better prepared to recieve our Lord, but not during.

[philothea]

I agree. I find it very distracting.

I am guessing that it was something people did back when the mass was in Latin, because they couldn't understand what was going on anyway, and wanted to pray. But now we can all pay attention just fine, I think.

I have never figured out a polite way to ask someone to please be quiet, though.

[Q the Ninja]

Some people do it because they're hurt by the abuses that go on during the Mass and need something to help them stay focused.

Padre Pio used to pray it while hearing Confessions.

[Aloysius]

I don't have much of a problem with it... because it actually can help you stay focused on the mass. perhaps you do not stay focused on the words, but the words aren't for your benefit anyway they're offered to God. but it can help you stay focused on the event you are attending.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Jun 12 2005, 03:56 PM']I agree...The faithful are to have full, active, and conscious participation in the Mass. I believe that praying the rosary, however meritous that may be, is actually a hinderance to having the type of participation that we are asked to give. It is an excellent way to meditate on the mysteries before Mass so as to be better prepared to recieve our Lord, but not during.
[right][snapback]609841[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


Nope....the understanding of participatio actuosa and participatio activa are being mixed.

Cam

[Cam42]

Here is an analogy using your current issue:

The difference between participation in the liturgy that can be called activa and participation that can be lablled actuosa rests in the presence in the soul of the baptismal character, the seal that grants one the right to participate. Without the baptismal mark, all the actions of singing, walking, kneeling or anything else can be termed "active," but they do not constitute participatio actuosa. Only the baptismal character can make any actions truly participatory. Let us use an example. Let us say that a pious Hindu attends Mass, takes part in the singing and even walks in a procession with great piety. In the same church is also a Catholic who is blind and deaf and who is unable to leave his chair; he can neither sing nor hear the readings nor walk in the procession; all he can do is sit in his pew and pray his rosary. Which one has truly participated, the one who is very active, or the one who has confined himself solely to his thoughts of adoration? Obviously, it is the baptized Catholic who has exercised participatio actuosa despite his lack of external, physical movement. The Hindu even with his many actions has not been capable of it, since he lacks the baptismal character.

Cam

[Tony]

I believe some people bring their rosary to Mass but not actaully pray it.. they just like to grab onto a blessed item to help them focus that way.


I usually just close my eyes

[Q the Ninja]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Jun 12 2005, 03:56 PM']I agree...The faithful are to have full, active, and conscious participation in the Mass.[/quote]

What do you mean by that?

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Jun 12 2005, 05:11 PM']Here is an analogy using your current issue:

The difference between participation in the liturgy that can be called activa and participation that can be lablled actuosa rests in the presence in the soul of the baptismal character, the seal that grants one the right to participate. Without the baptismal mark, all the actions of singing, walking, kneeling or anything else can be termed "active," but they do not constitute participatio actuosa. Only the baptismal character can make any actions truly participatory. Let us use an example. Let us say that a pious Hindu attends Mass, takes part in the singing and even walks in a procession with great piety. In the same church is also a Catholic who is blind and deaf and who is unable to leave his chair; he can neither sing nor hear the readings nor walk in the procession; all he can do is sit in his pew and pray his rosary. Which one has truly participated, the one who is very active, or the one who has confined himself solely to his thoughts of adoration? Obviously, it is the baptized Catholic who has exercised participatio actuosa despite his lack of external, physical movement. The Hindu even with his many actions has not been capable of it, since he lacks the baptismal character.

Cam
[right][snapback]609857[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


While you are technically correct, this is a very dangerous statement without further clarification. While it may be that the baptized Catholic participated actuosa, we should not leave any room to condone others to feel free to do whatever they want during mass. If I sit and read Jurassic Park during the Eucharistic Liturgy I have done a disservice to myself and others and have not participated in the mass simply by presence alone. So for those young people reading this, yes you should pay attention to everything that is going on during mass, understanding what each part of the mass means, and how it is relavent to your own spiritual life.

[philothea]

Actually, I have wondered about how much participation is needed for one's attendance at mass to "count". There are a couple of teenagers (who must be forced to come by their parents) who do basically nothing but roll their eyes and sigh a lot... and receive communion. Is showing up all that matters? Do you actually have to say any of the prayers? (Of course this is assuming a person is capable of doing so...)

[Cam42]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Jun 12 2005, 05:01 PM']While you are technically correct, this is a very dangerous statement without further clarification. While it may be that the baptized Catholic participated actuosa, we should not leave any room to condone others to feel free to do whatever they want during mass. If I sit and read Jurassic Park during the Eucharistic Liturgy I have done a disservice to myself and others and have not participated in the mass simply by presence alone. So for those young people reading this, yes you should pay attention to everything that is going on during mass, understanding what each part of the mass means, and how it is relavent to your own spiritual life.
[right][snapback]609879[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Actually, you are not correct. Praying the rosary is a religious action. Reading Jurassic Park is not. You missed the whole point of the analogy.

Perhaps a better understanding of participatio actuosa v. participatio activa is needed.

With the constitution on the liturgy, Sacrosanctum Concilium, issued in 1965 by the Second Vatican Council, everyone became very conscious of personal participation in the sacred liturgy, particularly in the Mass.

But active participation in in the liturgy was not a concept created by the Second Vatican Council. Indeed, even the very words actuosa participatio can be found in the writings of the popes for the past one hundred years. Pope Pius X called for it in his motu proprio, Tra le sollecitudini, published in 1903, when he said:

[quote]...the faithful assemble to draw that spirit from its primary and indispensable source, that is, from active participation in the sacred mysteries and in the public and solemn prayer of the Church.[/quote]

In 1958, the Sacred Congregation of Rites issued the instruction, De musica sacra, which distinguished several qualities of participation:

[quote]a) The Mass of its nature requires that all those present participate in it, in the fashion proper to each.

This participation must primarily be interior (i.e., union with Christ the Priest; offering with and through Him).

b) But the participation of those present becomes fuller (plenior) if to internal attention is joined external participation, expressed, that is to say, by external actions such as the position of the body (genuflecting, standing, sitting), ceremonial gestures, or, in particular, the responses, prayers and singing . . .

It is this harmonious form of participation that is referred to in pontifical documents when they speak of active participation (participatio actuosa), the principal example of which is found in the celebrating priest and his ministers who, with due interior devotion and exact observance of the rubrics and ceremonies, minister at the altar.

c) Perfect participatio actuosa of the faithful, finally, is obtained when there is added sacramental participation (by communion).

d) Deliberate participatio actuosa of the faithful is not possible without their adequate instruction.[/quote]

Vatican II introduced no radical alteration in the concept of participatio actuosa as fostered by the popes for the past decades. The general principle is contained in Article 14 of the constitution on the sacred liturgy:

[quote]Mother Church earnestly desires that all the faithful should be led to that full, conscious and active participation in the ceremonies which is demanded by the very nature of the liturgy.

Such participation by the Christian people as a "chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a redeemed people" (I Pet. 2:9; 2:4-5) is their right and duty by reason of their baptism.

In the restoration and promotion of the sacred liturgy this full and active participation by all the people is the aim to be considered before all else; for it is the primary and indispensable source from which the faithful are to derive the true spirit of Christ....[/quote]

What are those actions that make for true active participation in the liturgy? These must be both internal and external in quality, since man is a rational creature with body and soul. The external actions must be intelligent and understood, sincere and pious internally. The Church proposes many bodily positions: kneeling, standing, walking, sitting, etc. It likewise proposes many human actions: singing, speaking, listening and above all else, the reception of the Holy Eucharist. They demand internal attention as well as external execution.

One of the most active and demanding of human actions is that of listening. It requires strict attention and summons up in a person his total concentrative effort. It is possible, for example, to walk without really knowing that one is walking or advert to where one is going. It is possible even to sing, especially a very familiar tune, and not be conscious of actually singing. But one cannot truly listen without attention. Especially in our day of constant radio and TV broadcasting, we are able to tune out almost every sound we wish. To listen attentively demands full human concentration. Listening can be the most active form of participation, demanding effort and attention. Truly, as the scriptures tell us, faith demands hearing, fides ex auditu.

Every age has participated in the liturgy through baptism, as members of the Church and part of the mystical body of Christ. All ages have shared in the right and duty of actuosa participatio. If, as Pius X insists, the liturgy is the primary source of the Christian life, everyone must take part in it to achieve salvation. Active participation is not an invention of our day; the Church throughout the ages constantly shared the life of Christ with its members in the Mass and the sacraments, the very actions of Christ Himself working through His Church and His priesthood. For each age the activities deemed by it to be useful in promoting that participation have varied according to the needs and ideas of the period. One cannot say that because the medieval period developed a chant that was largely the possession of monastic choirs, the congregations who listened were not actively participating. Perhaps not according to post-Vatican II standards, but one must carefully avoid the error of judging the past by the present and applying to former times criteria that seem valuable in our own times. Because Palestrina's polyphonic Masses require the singing of trained choirs, can one assume that non-choir members in the renaissance period were deprived of an active participation in the liturgy? No age could permit such a thing to happen and thus be deprived of the primary source of the spiritual life. The sixteenth-century baptized Roman did participate through listening along with other activites, as no doubt an eighteenth-century Austrian did when he heard a Mozart Mass performed by a choir and orchestra.

We can conclude with this definition of participatio actuosa:

[quote](It is) that form of devout involvement in the liturgical action which, in the present conditions of the Church, best promotes the exercise of the common priesthood of the baptized: that is, their power to offer the sacrifice of the Mass with Christ and to receive the sacraments. It is clear that, concretely, this requires that the faithful understand the liturgical ceremonial; that they take part in it by bodily movements, standing, kneeling or sitting as the occasion may demand; that they join vocally in the parts which are intended for them. It also requires that they listen to, and understand, the liturgy of the word. It requires, too, that there be moments of silence when the import of the whole ceremonial may be absorbed and deeply personalized. (Colman E. O'Neill, "The Theological Meaning of Actuosa Participatio in the Liturgy," in Sacred Music and Liturgy Reform after Vatican II. Consociatio Internationalis Musicae Sacrae, Rome, 1969. p. 105.)[/quote]

[i]used with permission of Mons. Richard J. Schuler[/i]

[philothea]

[quote name='Q the Ninja' date='Jun 12 2005, 03:58 PM']Some people do it because they're hurt by the abuses that go on during the Mass and need something to help them stay focused.
[right][snapback]609845[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]



I only get bothered when someone prays their rosary out loud... loudly, during mass. I've seen other, quiet, people holding rosaries. I don't know what they're doing, it's no business of mine what anyone is thinking about.

[picchick]

It was an older lady?
I have heard in my religion book that dated back to when the Mass was in Latin. For the people who could not understand Latin, some would pray a rosary while it was going on. Maybe this was a habit that followed into the Mass today.
Just a suggestion,
Meg

[Cam42]

[quote name='picchick' date='Jun 12 2005, 06:09 PM']It was an older lady?
I have heard in my religion book that dated back to when the Mass was in Latin.  For the people who could not understand Latin, some would pray a rosary while it was going on.  Maybe this was a habit that followed into the Mass today.
Just a suggestion,
Meg
[right][snapback]609925[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Nah....that is an old wives' tale. There were missals (which most people had), which were English on one side and Latin on the other. Plus, most people knew their prayers in Latin and in English.