Rosary During Mass

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Jun 12 2005, 06:44 PM']Nah....that is an old wives' tale.  There were missals (which most people had), which were English on one side and Latin on the other.  Plus, most people knew their prayers in Latin and in English.
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I have a couple of those missals. 3 of them actually. They are quite cool.

[Brother Adam]

[quote]Actually, you are not correct. Praying the rosary is a religious action. Reading Jurassic Park is not. You missed the whole point of the analogy[/quote]

Actually I am correct and did not miss the point of anything. While informing the audience of a couple of liturgical terms, to the matter at hand, you were quite ambigous. Unclear enough that a 15 year old IM'd me and asked sincerely if it was really true that he didn't have to participate in anything (stand, kneel, sing, or do anything but sit and listen) since most of the time he didn't feel like it. Even asked me if it would be okay to just sit and read a book. So indeed your post needed clarification.

Thanks though

[Paphnutius]

Perhaps I am being picky...but also the Catholic in your example could almost do nothing other than what he/she was doing. For a Catholic who is able to participate in the Mass should...

[Dreamweaver]

I remember hearing from a priest that some old ladies would pray the rosary silently during the readings and prayers. The reason? Because they were deaf/very hard of hearing. Praying the rosary is their way of focusing on the Lord. Of course, I'm assuming the rosaries went away during the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

[Brother Adam]

A Catholic indeed should participate in the mass in what ways they can. participatio actuosa is first and foremost the most important as Cam pointed out. I can kneel through an entire eucharistic liturgy thinking about last nights episode of Law and Order and completely miss what is happening in front of me. I may have been kneeling, but my participation is lacking. Now, maybe I'm pregnant (err...maybe my wife is) and can't kneel for medical reasons but is fully involved with the liturgy. Though she hasn't kneeled, she has participated.

The woman praying the rosary may be participating, she may not be, we can't be sure where her heart is.

[Brother Adam]

.....

Edited June 13, 2005 by Brother Adam

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Q the Ninja' date='Jun 12 2005, 05:24 PM']What do you mean by that?
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"The liturgy requires active participation, for through and in the liturgy, "the work of our redemption is accomplished" (SC 2). "The Sixteen Docuements of Vatican II" Douglas Bushman S.T.L.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Jun 12 2005, 09:03 PM']Actually I am correct and did not miss the point of anything. While informing the audience of a couple of liturgical terms, to the matter at hand, you were quite ambigous. Unclear enough that a 15 year old IM'd me and asked sincerely if it was really true that he didn't have to participate in anything (stand, kneel, sing, or do anything but sit and listen) since most of the time he didn't feel like it. Even asked me if it would be okay to just sit and read a book. So indeed your post needed clarification.

Thanks though
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Not unclear....the analogy worked just fine thanks. The point is to get people to think and use their minds. I am not a fan of spoon feeding. Never have been. I gave enough information to get the ball rolling. If the 15 year old didn't want to engage the converstation, then he did the right thing by IMing. If he did, he would have addressed it in the forum.

The use of the terms were clear in the context in which they were used. Apparently the 15 year old missed the point of the analogy. The analogy was meant to say that the person who, by the grace given, at baptism participates in a more substantial way than one who is not baptized. I hope that is what you told him. Because that is the only answer that is acceptable.

If the 15 year old only wanted to sit and do nothing else, but pays attention, then he is participating moreso than a non-baptized person who goes through the motions. If you think otherwise, you are incorrect in your view. That is part of the grace of baptism. While it is laudable that one participates outwardly, and it is an expectation, let's be clear about that....the full concious and active participation (actuosa participatio) of the faithful is more than standing, sitting, kneeling, singing, etc....it is the inward participation as well as the outward participation.

Participatio activa = outward actions
Participatio actuosa = full, concious, and active participation.

[quote]The woman praying the rosary may be participating, she may not be, we can't be sure where her heart is.[/quote]

By virtue of her baptism, she is participating in a fuller way.

We cannot and should not always use the "we can't be sure" cop out. It is not always applicable.....we know that as one who is baptized that she participates in the Liturgy by her attendance.

[Brother Adam]

Do you make yourself feel special?

[Cam42]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Jun 12 2005, 09:43 PM']Do you make yourself feel special?
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And that was uncalled for. I am not getting into a "banter" match with you. I simply state the position of the Church. If you don't like it, fine. But don't attack the person.

Uncharitable.

[Brother Adam]

A lack of charity hides behind oh so many faces.

Edited June 13, 2005 by Brother Adam

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Jun 12 2005, 09:36 PM']
Participatio activa = outward actions
Participatio actuosa = full, concious, and active participation.
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Quick question about that... as far as actuosa goes...can we agree that when it says "full" it means as full as one is able to participate...that including outward actions?

If the only way that one is able to participate in Mass is to pray the rosary then would that meet the full aspect of actuosa?

[quote]By virtue of her baptism, she is participating in a fuller way.
[/quote]I think we can agree there...but my question still remains (assuming we can agree that full means as full as one is able to) is she participating fully? or the fullest that she is able to?

[Cam42]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Jun 12 2005, 10:06 PM']Quick question about that... as far as actuosa goes...can we agree that when it says "full" it means as full as one is able to participate...that including outward actions?

If the only way that one is able to participate in Mass is to pray the rosary then would that meet the full aspect of actuosa?

I think we can agree there...but my question still remains (assuming we can agree that full means as full as one is able to) is she participating fully? or the fullest that she is able to?
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participatio actuosa is mainly an inward action, but also encompasses the physical action of the Liturgy. It is internalizing the Mass.

Is she participating fully? Yes. Why? Because of her baptism. Is she participating as fully as she is able? Yes....so her participation is as great as mine, who can stand, sit, kneel, etc....we are both participating in the Liturgy.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Jun 12 2005, 10:13 PM']Is she participating fully?  Yes.  Why?  Because of her baptism.  Is she participating as fully as she is able?  Yes....so her participation is as great as mine, who can stand, sit, kneel, etc....we are both participating in the Liturgy.
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[/quote]Just wanted to make sure that we were on the same page as far as what "full" meant. I understand that if one is participating as fully and actively as one can then it is still as full and active as one who can sit, kneel, sing, etc...It was more of a rhetorical question to make the point that the terms hinge on one's capabilites, both inward (conscious) and outward (active).

[Jaime]

Is the woman in Camster's example doing anything wrong? No. Her physical issues make it impossible for her to respond or to follow along. Thus doing a rosary and focusing on piety is a good thing However since it is likely that these impediments aren't afflicting most that are asking the question, let's take out the example of the deaf and blind old woman for a second.

Let's go with what the Church teaches

MARIALIS CULTUS

[quote]. In fact, meditation on the mysteries of the Rosary, by
familiarizing the hearts and minds of the faithful with the mysteries of
Christ, can be an excellent preparation for the celebration of those same
mysteries in the liturgical action and can also become a continuing echo
thereof. However, it is a mistake to recite the Rosary during the
celebration of the liturgy, though unfortunately this practice still
persists here and there.

[/quote]

Hey I was one that loved to do a rosary right after communion. I thought it was a great closure to mass. But a dear friend pointed me to this Pope Paul VI writing that showed me that even though I had good intentions, this was not proper.