"He will come again to judge

[Fides_et_Ratio]

"He [Jesus] will come again to judge the living and the dead"

I was asked how we can believe the Saints are in Heaven if Jesus also judges the dead? This person believes we will "sleep" after we die until Christ's Second Coming... they point to verses that mention Jesus coming to judge the "quick" (living) and the dead (Acts 10:42, 2 Timothy 4:1, 1 Peter 4:5).

I wasn't quite sure how to explain this one adequately? Assistance appreciated.

[franciscanheart]

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/judga2.htm"]-The Second Coming and the Last Judgement[/url]
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/2NDCOME.HTM"]-The Second Coming of the Lord and the Last Judgement[/url]

Hope those help.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Jun 17 2005, 04:34 PM']"He [Jesus] will come again to judge the living and the dead"

I was asked how we can believe the Saints are in Heaven if Jesus also judges the dead? This person believes we will "sleep" after we die until Christ's Second Coming... they point to verses that mention Jesus coming to judge the "quick" (living) and the dead (Acts 10:42, 2 Timothy 4:1, 1 Peter 4:5).

I wasn't quite sure how to explain this one adequately? Assistance appreciated.
[right][snapback]614789[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
well, for one, we have examples in the bible of souls who have already received their reward, [i][b]before the second coming[/b][/i], which is when SDA's believe it will finally take place.

[b]Rev 6:9-10[/b]
[b]9 [/b]When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne;
[b]10 [/b]they cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?"


also, in the story of the rich man and lazarus ([url="http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Luke+16%3A19-31&section=0&version=rsv&new=1&oq=&NavBook=re&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6"]Luke 16:19-31[/url]), those two, as well as abraham have already died bodily, and their souls are in heaven or hell.

also, it is my understanding that SDA's believe that the soul is dead or asleep and remains w/ the body until it is raised w/ the body at the second coming. while there is in fact a resurrection of the body, we have verses which show that our souls depart our bodies when we die, and they can be in the presence of the Lord and alive [i][b]when absent from the body[/b][/i]:

[b]Gen 35:18-19[/b]
[b]18 [/b]And as her soul was departing (for she died), she called his name Ben-o'ni; but his father called his name Benjamin.
[b]19 [/b]So Rachel died, and she was buried on the way to Ephrath (that is, Bethlehem)

[b]2 Cor 5:6-9[/b]
[b]6 [/b]So we are always of good courage; we know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord,
[b]7 [/b]for we walk by faith, not by sight.
[b]8 [/b]We are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
[b]9 [/b]So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him.

[b]Mat 22:31-32[/b]
[b]31 [/b]And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God,
[b]32 [/b]'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living."


so, i really see no basis for soul sleep. those are your best verses to use, i think. there are others you could use, but they allow some wiggle room for someone who wants to interpret them the SDA way. for example (trying to play the devil's advocate), [url="http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Luke+12%3A4&section=0&version=rsv&new=1&oq=&NavBook=lu&NavGo=23&NavCurrentChapter=23"]Luke 12:4[/url] says that our enemy cannot kill the spirit, and so you could say, "well, this must mean the spirit remains alive." but, it could also just mean that we don't have access to the spirit or that physical attacks don't effect a spiritual entity. also, [url="http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=John+11%3A25-26&section=0&version=rsv&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ge&NavGo=35&NavCurrentChapter=35"]John 11:25-26[/url] says that he who believes in Jesus, tho he die, he will live. but since this is in the future tense, i suppose ur opponent could say, "yea, we'll live..........when the second coming occurs." [url="http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Rev+20%3A4&section=0&version=rsv&new=1&oq=&NavBook=joh&NavGo=11&NavCurrentChapter=11"]Rev 20:4[/url] speaks of the souls of the martyrs living and reigning w/ Christ, but this could be an account of the second coming, especially since it speaks of the 1,000 years, which some people interpret as the time of Jesus reign on earth when he comes again. finally, in [url="http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Luke+23%3A43&section=0&version=rsv&new=1&oq=&NavBook=lu&NavGo=22&NavCurrentChapter=22"]Luke 23:43[/url] it looks like Jesus is telling the theif that on that day, he will be w/ him in paradise, which would be before the second coming. i myself would debate this tho, by showing that Jesus was employing a hebrew idiom that meant soon, not "on this very day", and that the meaning also depends on if u put the comma before or after today. in the greek, there are no commas.

now, i suppose u could make those verses work for you as well. i'm just trying to anticipate some of their arguments and to make sure you only use the most air-tight verses. SDA's are PROS at twisting scripture.

good luck to you! oh, btw, are you all deciding to be more aggressive now?

[Fides_et_Ratio]

thanks hughey & phat!

this isn't on my FBC board, phat, though, I am considering a move. When we decided to "back off" two new members joined, one recently left the Catholic Church and the other was thinking about it, so I tried to keep posting to a minimum, but I couldn't justify not "arguing" for Catholic teachings in such a case... to be silent when another is considering leaving the faith isn't an option, I still think we have a good idea going (and fruits were starting to show)... I'm hoping there's a way we can do both somehow.

Anyway, thanks again for the information... however, now I'm pondering the meaning of judging the "living" and the dead. Was I right in saying that this isn't a simulataneous judging? That is, the dead are judged upon death, and the living shall be judged at the Second Coming? What I found in the Catechism was a little vague, so I'm trying to make sure I'm still on the right track.

[franciscanheart]

from the second link.....

[i]Our Lord will judge us accordingly. For those who have died and already have faced the particular judgment, their judgment will stand. Those living at the time of the Second Coming will receive judgment. Those who have rejected the Lord in this life, who have sinned mortally,, who have no remorse for sin and do not seek forgiveness, will have condemned themselves to hell for all eternity. "By rejecting grace in this life, one already judges oneself, receives according to one's works and can even condemn oneself for all eternity by rejecting the Spirit of love (Catechism, No. 678). The souls of the righteous will enter heavenly glory and enjoy the beatific vision and those who need purification will undergo it.[/i]

[Fides_et_Ratio]

thanks, hughey, you rock.

[phatcatholic]

here's how i look at it:

--judge the living.............as in, those who are alive on earth when he comes again. the last judgment will be their particular judgment

--judge the dead.............as in, those who have already died. they already received their particular judgment when they died, but when Jesus comes again this judgment will be declared to the world. so, everyone else will be witnessing the judgment of the dead for the first time. we will see every person as being "judged" even tho those who have died have already received their reward.

here are some articles on the subject:

--[url="http://web.archive.org/web/20030625141150/http://www.oloswestriver.org/judgement.htm"]Particular and General Judgment[/url]
--[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08550a.htm"]Particular Judgment[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/links/jump.cgi?ID=2058"]Where Does the Soul Go After We Die?[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/judga1.htm"]Particular Judgment[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/judga2.htm"]The Second Coming and the Last Judgment[/url]
--[url="http://www.rosary-center.org/ll49n6.htm"]The Last Day and the General Judgment[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/2NDCOME.HTM"]The Second Coming of the Lord and the Last Judgment[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=1080"]We Await a New Heaven and New Earth[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/FLFIRE.TXT"]Flood and Fire[/url]
--[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08552a.htm"]Last Judgment[/url]
--[url="http://web.archive.org/web/20040224032720/http://catholicapologetics.info/judgmnt.htm"]The General Judgment and the Resurrection[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/judgb1.htm"]Judgment and the Laws of the Universe[/url]
--[url="http://www.carl-olson.com/articles/adventtension_ncr.html"]Advent Tension[/url]

pax christi,
phatcatholic