This question is LONG overdue

[phatcatholic]

ok, this has been buggin me forever, but for some reason i always forget to post at phatmass about it. anyway, i remembered (obviously) so here's the deal. at my church, they made the following changes a couple months ago:

1. the cantor tells us at the beginning of every mass to face the center aisle as the priest processes forward
2. if we enter the sanctuary during mass, we are to bow before the altar instead if genuflecting
3. after the lamb of God, we are to remain standing, instead of kneeling in anticipation of the Eucharist
4. after we receive the Eucharist, we are to return to our pew and remain standing until everyone has received
5. when the priest sits, we can then either sit or kneel.

when our associate pastor first explained all this to us, he said it was "from the vatican" but i have been unable to find any evidence of this. where are these changes coming from? were they ever approved by the vatican? are the bishops allowed to institute these changes on their own authority? should i go along w/ this, even tho i will most likely be the only one going against the grain? what is the reason for these changes?

someone help me out...........i'm freakin dyin over here

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jun 27 2005, 12:36 AM']ok, this has been buggin me forever, but for some reason i always forget to post at phatmass about it. anyway, i remembered (obviously) so here's the deal. at my church, they made the following changes a couple months ago:

1. the cantor tells us at the beginning of every mass to face the center aisle as the priest processes forward
2. if we enter the sanctuary during mass, we are to bow before the altar instead if genuflecting
3. after the lamb of God, we are to remain standing, instead of kneeling in anticipation of the Eucharist
4. after we receive the Eucharist, we are to return to our pew and remain standing until everyone has received
5. when the priest sits, we can then either sit or kneel.

when our associate pastor first explained all this to us, he said it was "from the vatican" but i have been unable to find any evidence of this. where are these changes coming from? were they ever approved by the vatican? are the bishops allowed to institute these changes on their own authority? should i go along w/ this, even tho i will most likely be the only one going against the grain? what is the reason for these changes?

someone help me out...........i'm freakin dyin over here

pax christi,
phatcatholic
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You should check out the [url="http://www.adoremus.org/"]Adoremus[/url] website, because it normally posts the various clarifications from the Congregation for Divine Worship.

(1) To the best of my knowledge there is no instruction from Rome saying that the people are to turn and face the center aisle as the priest processes forward.

(2) It is true that one is only to bow to the altar, but if the Blessed Sacrament is present in the sanctuary you are to genuflection, because that is still the normal gesture of reverence paid to the Eucharist in the Roman Rite (unless you are carrying something or are infirm).

(3) When the priest says, "This is the Lamb of God . . ." the faithful are to kneel, for as the Vatican indicated in one of its clarifications, kneeling at this point in the liturgy is [url="http://www.adoremus.org/0502Kneeling.html"]laudably retained[/url].

(4 and 5) There is no requirement that everyone must remain standing after receiving communion, you may either sit or kneel.

I recommend going through the documents section of the Adoremus website, as I indicated above, because they have a large number of the Notitiae published by the CDW.

[Apotheoun]

I almost forgot, you should also look at the liturgical clarifications issued by the Congregation for Divine Worship in [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html"]Redemptionis Sacramentum[/url].

[phatcatholic]

thanks apotheoun :thumb: anyone else know anything about this?

[Technicoid]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jun 27 2005, 04:09 AM']thanks apotheoun :thumb: anyone else know anything about this?
[/quote]

I think the matter of bowing versus genuflecting is an issue when the tabernacle is not present behind the altar. In the cathedral here in Boise, the tabernacle is in an alcove to the left of the alter, albeit still quite prominent. I genuflect toward the tabernacle. Only when I pass in front of the altar do I bow toward it.

[FutureSoror]

I remember reading in the book, 'Mass Confusion' about the standing after communion. I don't remember it saying that it's 'good' or 'bad', but it did talk about the beauty that occurs when the congregation acts in unison. I'd recommend taking a look at what it says, because I can't remember it well enough to repeat it.

[phatcatholic]

is this happening in anyone else's church? what are you doing in response to this? how did your pastor explain it to you?

[Noel's angel]

The only thing that has changed in my Church is that the choir have decided to sing during the Sign of Peace. I read somewhere that you're not supposed to do this, but I don't want to say anything until I know for certain. Anyone here know???

I think it is difficult to say anything because you don't want to seem arrogant but I think if you approach the priest with the relevant information, telling him that you are concerned about these new practices, then he should listen.

[cathgirl]

We were also told to stand after Communion so that we realize that it is a "community" thing instead of strictly a personal thing. I'd rather kneel and there are a few families who continue to kneel after they receive the Eucharist. I also used to attend a parish where the tabernacle was in a different room (I don't like this at all) and we would just bow at the altar. My dad told me that he has read that a person is supposed to just bow before the altar and then genuflect before the tabernacle.




[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jun 28 2005, 03:25 AM']is this happening in anyone else's church? what are you doing in response to this? how did your pastor explain it to you?
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[dUSt]

Bow toward the altar, genuflect towards the tabernacle. If the tabernacle is present you should always genuflect. Jesus is in there.

As for the standing thing, I'd give your priest a copy of Redemptionis Sacramentum with the appropriate parts highlighted with a bright yellow highlighter (bright green or pink will work fine as well).

If that doesn't work, write the bishop.

[Noel's angel]

anyone got an answer to my question?

[journeyman]

Noel - I don't know, but I think I'm on the wrong side of the pond to have read your documents.

From the General Instruction to the Roman Missal (US Bishops 2003)
[url="http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter2.shtml#sect2"]http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter2.shtml#sect2[/url]

Cam tells me that the US Bishops have revised our GIRM several times since 1975, which was the last time the Congregation for Divine Worship spoke on the topic.

Movements and Posture

42. The gestures and posture of the priest, the deacon, and the ministers, as well as those of the people, ought to contribute to making the entire celebration resplendent with beauty and noble simplicity, so that the true and full meaning of the different parts of the celebration is evident and that the participation of all is fostered.52 Therefore, attention should be paid to what is determined by this General Instruction and the traditional practice of the Roman Rite and to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God, rather than private inclination or arbitrary choice.

A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.

43. The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance chant, or while the priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Prayer of the Faithful; from the invitation, Orate, fraters (Pray, brethren), before the prayer over the offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated below.

They should, however, sit while the readings before the Gospel and the responsorial Psalm are proclaimed and for the homily and while the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory is taking place; and, as circumstances allow, they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed.

In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.53

With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.

44. Among gestures included are also actions and processions: of the priest going with the deacon and ministers to the altar; of the deacon carrying the Evangeliary or Book of the Gospels to the ambo before the proclamation of the Gospel; of the faithful presenting the gifts and coming forward to receive Communion. It is appropriate that actions and processions of this sort be carried out with decorum while the chants proper to them occur, in keeping with the norms prescribed for each.

Silence

45. Sacred silence also, as part of the celebration, is to be observed at the designated times.54 Its purpose, however, depends on the time it occurs in each part of the celebration. Thus within the Act of Penitence and again after the invitation to pray, all recollect themselves; but at the conclusion of a reading or the homily, all meditate briefly on what they have heard; then after Communion, they praise and pray to God in their hearts.

Even before the celebration itself, it is commendable that silence to be observed in the church, in the sacristy, in the vesting room, and in adjacent areas, so that all may dispose themselves to carry out the sacred action in a devout and fitting manner.



The US Bishops variations from the universal norm can be found in the appendix to the GIRM

390. It is up to the Conferences of Bishops to decide on the adaptations indicated in this General Instruction and in the Order of Mass and, once their decisions have been accorded the recognitio of the Apostolic See, to introduce them into the Missal itself. These adaptations include

* The gestures and posture of the faithful (cf. no. 43 above);
* The gestures of veneration toward the altar and the Book of the Gospels (cf. no. 273 above);
* The texts of the chants at the entrance, at the presentation of the gifts, and at Communion (cf. nos. 48, 74, 87 above);
* The readings from Sacred Scripture to be used in special circumstances (cf. no. 362 above);
* The form of the gesture of peace (cf. no. 82 above);
* The manner of receiving Holy Communion (cf. nos. 160, 283 above);
* The materials for the altar and sacred furnishings, especially the sacred vessels, and also the materials, form, and color of the liturgical vestments (cf. nos. 301, 326, 329, 339, 342-346 above).

Directories or pastoral instructions that the Conferences of Bishops judge useful may, with the prior recognitio of the Apostolic See, be included in the Roman Missal at an appropriate place.

text of US adaptations which have received recognition from the Vatican
[url="http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/girm/fil2.shtml"]http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/girm/fil2.shtml[/url]

[phatcatholic]

thank you journeyman. the link to the approved US adaptations was very helpful. a couple questions:

[b]1. [/b]our tabernacle is behind the altar. our priest said if we arrive after mass starts we should bow instead of kneel. [b]is there anything about the nature of the mass that would require this?[/b]

reading the GIRM w/ the US adaptations has revealed to me that there is no requirement to face the center aisle during the entrance.

[b]2. [/b]as for standing after the Agnus Dei, the last sentence (which i have bolded) in the following paragraph seems to be the key phrase:

[quote]This adaptation will be inserted at number 43, paragraph 3:

In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei [i][b]unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise[/b][/i].[/quote]
ok, normally we would kneel after the Agnus Dei. but, apparently, the diocesan bishop has determined otherwise, so now we stand. here's my question tho: [b]does the bishop need the approval of the vatican before he can make this change? if so, has he received this approval?[/b]

[b]3. [/b]as for standing after receiving communion and until everyone else has received, i have a couple questions over this section:

[quote]43. The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance chant, or while the priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Prayer of the Faithful; from the invitation, Orate, fraters (Pray, brethren), before the prayer over the offerings [i][b]until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated below[/b][/i].

They should, however, sit while the readings before the Gospel and the responsorial Psalm are proclaimed and for the homily and while the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory is taking place; and, as circumstances allow, they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed.

In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.53[/quote]
ok, it says that we should stand from the prayer over the offerings until the end of mass, unless indicated below. well, in the next two paragraphs, it doesn't proscribe a particular posture for right after receiving communion, so [b]would the first paragraph be the support for standing while we wait for others to receive?[/b] in the second paragraph, it says "they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed." [b]when does the sacred silence take place? is it as soon as i have received or after everyone has received?[/b]

those are all the questions i have so far. thanks for your help

pax christi,
phatcatholic

Edited June 29, 2005 by phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

ok, the section of the Adoremus site on [url="http://www.adoremus.org/Posturelinks.html"]Gesture and Posture[/url] has many articles on this subject. after reading all of them, i have come to the conclusion that we may stand, sit, or kneel after the Agnus Dei and after receiving communion (while everyone else is receiving). the bishop can propose that everyone stand, but he can't prohibit us from kneeling.

it seems ridiculous to me that they couldn't just decide on one posture and stick w/ it. anyway, what should i do now? : continue w/ the long custom of kneeling at these times, or begin standing, as the bishop has proposed, for the sake of unity? this is freakin killin me.......

Edited June 29, 2005 by phatcatholic

[Fides_et_Ratio]

don't conform for the sake of unity!


(says the girl who refuses to pray the Our Father in the orans position... a "supposed" GIRM implementation ("supposed" aka blantant lie!)