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This question is LONG overdue


phatcatholic

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[quote name='Technicoid' date='Jun 27 2005, 10:51 AM']I think the matter of bowing versus genuflecting is an issue when the tabernacle is not present behind the altar. In the cathedral here in Boise, the tabernacle is in an alcove to the left of the alter, albeit still quite prominent. I genuflect toward the tabernacle. Only when I pass in front of the altar do I bow toward it.
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Sadly the tabernacle in many Roman Rite Churches is often in a small out of the way closet, which is nearly impossible to see or even find. In Byzantine Churches the tabernacle is always in the sanctuary on the altar.

The tabernacle and the altar are intrinsically bound together as one sacred mystery, and so to separate them is imprudent and theologically problematic. Pope Pius XII pointed this out in an allocution he delivered before the International Congress on Pastoral Liturgy in September 1956; in that address he noted that there was a ". . . lessening of esteem for the presence and action of Christ in the tabernacle," and he went on to say that, "The sacrifice of the altar is held sufficient, and the importance of Him who accomplishes it is reduced. Yet the person of our Lord must hold the central place in worship, for it is His person that unifies the relations of the altar and the tabernacle and gives them their meaning. It is through the sacrifice of the altar, first of all, that the Lord becomes present in the Eucharist, and He is in the tabernacle only as the [i]memoria sacrificii et passionis suae[/i]. To separate tabernacle from altar is to separate two things which by their origin and their nature should remain united." [Pope Pius XII, "Allocution to the International Congress on Pastoral Liturgy," from the book, [u]Papal Teachings: The Liturgy[/u] (Boston: Daughters of St. Paul, 1962), page 514]

Those who hold that the presence of the Tabernacle on the altar in the sanctuary somehow detracts from the Eucharistic sacrifice, have failed to grasp the fact that Christ's presence cannot be divided.

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[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jun 28 2005, 05:43 PM'][. . .]
[b]1. [/b]our tabernacle is behind the altar. our priest said if we arrive after mass starts we should bow instead of kneel. [b]is there anything about the nature of the mass that would require this?[/b]
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If I were to visit a Latin Rite Church and arrived slightly after Mass had begun, I would genuflect to the Tabernacle as long the reserved Sacrament was present in it. If there was no visible sign indicating that the Blessed Sacrament was in the Tabernacle, I would assume that it was there, and I would genuflect.

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[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jun 28 2005, 05:43 PM'][quote]In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei [b][i]unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise[/i][/b].[/quote]
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If my memory serves me, somewhere on the Adoremus website is a transcription of the meeting of the bishops conference where this issue was discussed. I will try to look through my own files to see if I still have the information, because it doesn't mean what it appears to mean. In other words, it wasn't meant to change the traditional practice in the Roman Rite of kneeling during the ritual where the priest shows the people the consecrated elements and says, "This is the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world, happy are those who are called to His supper." I will post the information if I find it.

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phatcatholic

i think i read the transcipt that you are referring to. its confusing b/c when they refer to the "norm" in the US, they are referring to standing and the whole debate is over whether or not they should demand that the church follow the GIRM (which they saw as proscribing the "norm" of standing) or if they should allow people to kneel too, as if kneeling were not the norm.

this is totally backwards from what i have always experienced and what i have always understood to be the norm in the US.

:blink:

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[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jun 29 2005, 03:47 AM']i think i read the transcipt that you are referring to. its confusing b/c when they refer to the "norm" in the US, they are referring to standing and the whole debate is over whether or not they should demand that the church follow the GIRM (which they saw as proscribing the "norm" of standing) or if they should allow people to kneel too, as if kneeling were not the norm.

this is totally backwards from what i have always experienced and what i have always understood to be the norm in the US.

:blink:
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Thank you. Your comments have jogged my memory. The phrase was added in order to insure that the practice of kneeling when the Eucharistic elements are shown to the people for their adoration would be allowed to continue. Ironically, now that the Vatican itself has indicated that kneeling at that point in the rite is "laudably retained," the phrase that was meant to defend the practice is now being used in order to try and suppress it. Regardless, the lay faithful have a right to kneel at that point in the liturgy, even if their bishop issues a different directive, because the universal norm of kneeling can only be rescinded by the Supreme Authority of the Church, i.e., the Holy See.

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phatcatholic

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 29 2005, 06:02 AM']Thank you.  Your comments have jogged my memory.  The phrase was added in order to insure that the practice of kneeling when the Eucharistic elements are shown to the people for their adoration would be allowed to continue.  Ironically, now that the Vatican itself has indicated that kneeling at that point in the rite is "laudably retained," the phrase that was meant to defend the practice is now being used in order to try and suppress it.  Regardless, the lay faithful have a right to kneel at that point in the liturgy, even if their bishop issues a different directive, because the universal norm of kneeling can only be rescinded by the Supreme Authority of the Church, i.e., the Holy See.
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exactly................which brings me back to my previous question: should i kneel since it is my right and since it has been the custom in the churches i have always attended (until the bishops started changing things) or should i stand, which as a result of the bishops everyone is doing now, so that i will remain in unity w/ the rest of the parishioners?

i don't really know what to do................and i always feel like there's this big gaping hole that my head would fill if only i would stand like everyone else. help me out bro,

pax christi,
nick

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[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jun 29 2005, 07:11 AM']exactly................which brings me back to my previous question: should i kneel since it is my right and since it has been the custom in the churches i have always attended (until the bishops started changing things) or should i stand, which as a result of the bishops everyone is doing now, so that i will remain in unity w/ the rest of the parishioners?

i don't really know what to do................and i always feel like there's this big gaping hole that my head would fill if only i would stand like everyone else. help me out bro,

pax christi,
nick
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It's your personal decision.

I must admit that I rarely attend Divine Liturgy in Latin Churches anymore, but when I do attend, I kneel when the consecrated elements are shown to me, because kneeling at that point (i.e., when the priest says, "This is the Lamb of God . . .) is a sign of adoration in the Roman Rite.

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phatcatholic

so, i shouldn't worry about the lack of unity that me kneeling would present? anyone else have an opinion?

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phatcatholic

what about the idea that kneeling focuses too much on my personal experience and not enough on the communion that we share w/ everyone that is present? (that has often been the defense for standing)

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Fides_et_Ratio

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jun 29 2005, 10:39 PM']what about the idea that kneeling focuses too much on my personal experience and not enough on the communion that we share w/ everyone that is present? (that has often been the defense for standing)
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at that point in the Mass it's not about anyone's "personal experiences", but about the fact that Christ is present in the Eucharist. the focus at that specific point in the Mass should be on the Eucharist, on receiving the Eucharist, and on adoration/reverence/awe of the Eucharist present before you.

at least, that'd be my answer.

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phatcatholic

its frustrating. in the "spirit of unity" the bishops have just fractured the body, much like innovations "in the spirit of vatican II" have abandoned orthodoxy.

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[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jun 29 2005, 07:39 PM']what about the idea that kneeling focuses too much on my personal experience and not enough on the communion that we share w/ everyone that is present? (that has often been the defense for standing)
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The liturgy is an action of the whole Body of Christ, but that doesn't mean that it is reducible to some kind of communal or social action. In fact, the liturgy is by definition a personal action of each member of the Body.

Moreover, kneeling (in the Roman Rite) is a sign of adoration given to Christ who is present in the consecrated elements, and so it is not some kind of "private" devotional practice; instead, it is a practice founded upon a dogmatic truth, i.e., it is a recognition of the fact that Christ is really and substantially present in the Blessed Sacrament.

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phatcatholic

i think another argument is that we are more likely to sing the Communion Hymn when we are standing then when we are kneeling. does the hymn hold precedence over praying? i always just viewed the communion hymn as background music to my prayers w/ the Lord, prayers to prepare myself beforehand and to thank him afterwards. surely this is not wrong of me, is it?

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[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jun 29 2005, 11:55 PM']i think another argument is that we are more likely to sing the Communion Hymn when we are standing then when we are kneeling. does the hymn hold precedence over praying? i always just viewed the communion hymn as background music to my prayers w/ the Lord, prayers to prepare myself beforehand and to thank him afterwards. surely this is not wrong of me, is it?
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When I was a member of the Latin Rite I never sang the communion hymn, because most of the time the hymn was rather inane.

:D

I don't see anything wrong with kneeling and singing if you want to do that, or simply kneeling and praying.

One of the problems with the reform of the Roman Rite, is that there is now almost a complete lack of praying in any individual sense by the lay faithful during the rite of the Mass. This was clearly not the intention of the Council Fathers. Certainly a proper emphasis upon the communal nature of the Mass is a good thing, but it must not destroy the personal reality of the individual members of the congregation.

In the Byzantine liturgy there are moments of personal prayer and reflection and these moments are not seen as detracting from the celebration, but are integral to it.

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