*Cough Cough*

[Jaime]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Sep 6 2005, 01:03 PM']I wouldn't rather be sleeping with him. I'm just saying that's what some people who divorce think. I don't have any particular feelings about that guy over there, one way or the other.
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That guy over there told me he thought you were a cutie patooty.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Sep 6 2005, 01:18 PM']That guy over there told me he thought you were a cutie patooty.
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Really?

Hmm, well, did he give you his number? He's not too bad himself ...

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Sep 6 2005, 01:02 PM']Well, honestly my thoughts today aren't all that different from this particular post, aside from the OSAS teachings. And, of course, I defer to the Church's teachings on when divorce is justified.

And I guess I'm really not sickened that I once believed that. It's not all that surprising that I did, considering that this is the way I grew up and what I was taught from childhood. I think there's even a grain of truth in that teaching, in that God does love us and continue to woo us back to himself even after we've sinned.

I'm just wondering why you're so sickened at what you used to believe ... you didn't intentionally believe something you knew to be wrong. You accepted what you thought to be true. Then, when you learned the real truth, you accepted that, through God's grace.

It's not a bad thing that you used to be Protestant. God used even that faulty teaching to bring you closer to himself, which again is a testament to his grace.
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I'm mainly sickened by it because of how far from the Truth I was, and I was persuading others away from the truth.

*Bad Teresa*

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Mrs. Bro. Adam' date='Sep 6 2005, 01:27 PM']I'm mainly sickened by it because of how far from the Truth I was, and I was persuading others away from the truth.

*Bad Teresa*
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I know how you feel. I once encouraged a friend of mine not to date a guy partly because he was Catholic. They did date, and eventually married, but he became Baptist first. Whenever I think of that, it makes me really sad.

My study group is doing the book of Romans right now, and it's been really valuable to me to reflect on St. Paul's experience in this area. The man [i]persecuted[/i] Christians, and stood witness at the stoning of a great Christian saint, and yet still sees value in the faith of his fathers.

He says in Romans 3, "What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God." While there's a slightly different situation in the Protestant world, there definitely is truth there that, as a Catholic, you can acknowledge as a starting point to begin communications.

St. Paul talks in other places about how zealous he was in his faith. I'm sure that you felt that same zeal as a Protestant, and that can serve you well now that you're Catholic. When you did what you did, you were motivated by a love for God, and a desire to protect what you thought was truth. That's not a bad thing -- it's good, actually. Now that you know better who God is and how to love him, you can be an extraordinarily effective communicator of truth to people who are what you were.

[kateri05]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Sep 6 2005, 12:02 PM'] And, of course, I defer to the Church's teachings on when divorce is justified.
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sorry, soj, not be picky, but just to clarify for those reading this:
divorce is never "justified" by Mother Church, namely because it is not a spiritual or physical possibility. once united in the sacrament of holy matrimony, the two have become one flesh and only death can part them.

however, separation (ie living apart) for good reasons (adultery, unbelieving spouse, abuse, etc. ) is a different issue. and in certain situations, such as lifelong adultery or abuse of any kind, an annulment would be possible if the Church could find cause, since of course, if the full consent and knowledge was not present at the wedding, then the sacrament could not have taken place and a union of bodies and spirits did not occurr. but annullment does not end a marriage, it simply clarifies that there was not one to begin with.

like i said, not to pick on you sojourner, but my soon to be converted husband reminded me last nite that catholics often speak in terminology assuming that everyone is as well catechized as they so everyone can fill in the correct blanks. i'm sure thats exactly what you were doing, but some people don't realize that there are blanks to fill in! which was his point so yea, just trying to help

[kateri05]

and as for you mrs. bro, don't be so hard on yourself! i would definitely take Sojourner's advice on meditating on St. Paul. you're such a wonderful example of Catholic living now that I'm sure God was slowly working you this way the whole time

[Sojourner]

Thanks for the clarification, kateri!

[Brother Adam]

Jesus never said divorce is possible. Moses merely alllowed a "writ of divorce" so they won't murder their wives. Spiritual divorce is about as possible as un-baptizing someone.

[Sojourner]

OK, and I'm asking this out of pure ignorance (and laziness because I am not looking it up myself) but in the catechism it says:
2386 It can happen that one of the spouses is the innocent victim of a divorce decreed by civil law; this spouse therefore has not contravened the moral law. There is a considerable difference between a spouse who has sincerely tried to be faithful to the sacrament of marriage and is unjustly abandoned, and one who through his own grave fault destroys a canonically valid marriage.

Now, in this case, would the marriage be annulled, or would the wronged spouse be granted some sort of freedom from the covenant they'd entered?

[musturde]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Sep 6 2005, 03:50 PM']Jesus never said divorce is possible. Moses merely alllowed a "writ of divorce" so they won't murder their wives. Spiritual divorce is about as possible as un-baptizing someone.
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Exactly, if the marriage was forced upon someone, then it's not seen in the eyes of God as a marriage. That would make the anullment process go a lot faster. I don't get what this post was quoted for. What's wrong with divorce for abuse or adultery?

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

Divorce is not allowed by God. Period. Check the Catechism

[franciscanheart]

[i hope you dont mind my small interuption to tell you that im glad to see you around again.]

[argent_paladin]

That's not quite true. Divorce is not allowed by the Church. Comma.
1. A valid, nonconsummated marriage can be dissolved by the Pope, with both parties' approval. See CIC 1142
2. Like the baptists, if two not Christians are married and one gets baptized and cannot pratice the faith because of the spouse (or if the spouse abandons or divorces her unwillingly), that person may be dissolved "in favor of the faith" (Pauline Priviege). See CIC 1143
3.The Petrine Privilege, when one party was originally baptized, is reserved to the Pope only,and is quite rare.

All of these are dissolutions of valid, natural (nonsacramental) marriages. Therefore, it is not quite accurate to say that the Church doesn't allow divorce. It can be harmful to say that because, in some situations described earlier, a wife who is abandoned by her abusive, non-Christian husband through no fault of her own, might think that her only choice is to seek an annullment or stay single for the rest of her life. That is clearly not the case.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='argent_paladin' date='Sep 7 2005, 02:19 PM']That's not quite true. Divorce is not allowed by the Church. Comma.
1. A valid, nonconsummated marriage can be dissolved by the Pope, with both parties' approval. See CIC 1142
2. Like the baptists, if two not Christians are married and one gets baptized and cannot pratice the faith because of the spouse (or if the spouse abandons or divorces her unwillingly), that person may be dissolved "in favor of the faith" (Pauline Priviege). See CIC 1143
3.The Petrine Privilege, when one party was originally baptized, is reserved to the Pope only,and is quite rare.

All of these are dissolutions of valid, natural (nonsacramental) marriages. Therefore, it is not quite accurate to say that the Church doesn't allow divorce. It can be harmful to say that because, in some situations described earlier, a wife who is abandoned by her abusive, non-Christian husband through no fault of her own, might think that her only choice is to seek an annullment or stay single for the rest of her life. That is clearly not the case.
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Thanks. That's what I thought the CCC was saying in the quote I posted, but I wanted to be sure.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='argent_paladin' date='Sep 7 2005, 03:19 PM']That's not quite true. Divorce is not allowed by the Church. Comma.
1. A valid, nonconsummated marriage can be dissolved by the Pope, with both parties' approval. See CIC 1142
2. Like the baptists, if two not Christians are married and one gets baptized and cannot pratice the faith because of the spouse (or if the spouse abandons or divorces her unwillingly), that person may be dissolved "in favor of the faith" (Pauline Priviege). See CIC 1143
3.The Petrine Privilege, when one party was originally baptized, is reserved to the Pope only,and is quite rare.

All of these are dissolutions of valid, natural (nonsacramental) marriages. Therefore, it is not quite accurate to say that the Church doesn't allow divorce. It can be harmful to say that because, in some situations described earlier, a wife who is abandoned by her abusive, non-Christian husband through no fault of her own, might think that her only choice is to seek an annullment or stay single for the rest of her life. That is clearly not the case.
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Okay, so non-sacramental marriages may be divorced...I don't think that's what the people in this thread meant, but it's nice to point it out.

In scenario number one, though...I thought consummation was necessary for validity and no consummation meant "really easy annullment"...